Looking for good Nurgle resources/advice

[Carnis]

Again, NO ONE is telling you or anyone else that stymie Nurgle is more effective than bash Nurgle, only that smeborg's personal experience is that stymie has done better for him. It is an alternative that coaches may prefer on an individual basis. Some will, some won't and that is 100% fine.

That statement seems dishonest to me considering this:

Also Carnis, Smeborg has said the purpose of skilling his men up the way he does is to provide fun for him and his opponent and a challenge, not to be the most efficient team so I can understand a lot more of his way of thinking now.

No, Jimmy, I find it to be the highest performing (most effective) style of Nurgle team.

All the best.

To me it reads loud and clear that SOME ONE is telling us that Stymie is more effective than Bash.

Also if you actually read through this thread, its 60 pages of 3/4 of coaches saying Stymie is best, 1/8 of other stuff and 1/8 saying bash is superior, and getting constantly abused for saying that.

[mattgslater]

It's largely a tone issue, Carnis. You and (especially) Jimmy have gotten abrasive, while the others on this thread (including other bash coaches) haven't.

Smeborg's passionate about his stymie style, and that's fine. That quote of his you keep providing is a reference to Smeborg's own experience; if his experience says that, then he should make a claim just like the one you keep harping on him for making. You do see the qualifier there, right? The one that identifies his conclusion as one drawn strictly from empiricism? It's got the same empirical basis that you Blackboxers are using, only with different evidence that yields different conclusions. Frankly, I'm taking that as support for my opinion that format and coaching proclivities are the big drivers of stylisitic efficiency, and that few team races have one exclusively superior style of play.

Part of the reason that this thread has been mostly about "stymie" styles is that "killer" styles are pretty obvious and don't really merit 62pp of tactical discussion. Another part is likely that there are a lot of teams to play "killer" with, but if you want a unique "stymie" experience, Nurgle can give you something you can't get anywhere else. "Killer" Nurgle are really a Chaos variant with cheap foulers, Regenerate, a few complementary skills you wouldn't pay for, and a harder time skilling the Blockers.

[nick_nameless]

This thread has become a real slap fight

I was speaking with coach Drool Bucket this morning on a similar topic. This thread came up in our conversation, and he mentioned identifying with the views of one particular coach, and I generally tend to have a different take on things than he does.

He tends to build specialist or 'role' players. I build players to try and fit an overall strategic theme and keep my players more versatile. Admitting that he's a better coach than I am at this time, we are still both fairly successful in our group with out somewhat different approaches.

Point is that there is more than one way to skin a cat (build a BB Team). A coaches philosophy and approach to the game has as much to do with what will be successful on the pitch as the match-up, the make-up of the league, etc. At the end of the day, it's a trial and error game. When pieces die and it's time to build new ones, you take the experience Nuffle granted you and try to bring it to bear as you level up. I don't think anyone should be trying to dictate that you must do XYZ to have success with any team, because none of those statements are universally true.

[Carnis]

Part of the reason that this thread has been mostly about "stymie" styles is that "killer" styles are pretty obvious and don't really merit 62pp of tactical discussion. Another part is likely that there are a lot of teams to play "killer" with, but if you want a unique "stymie" experience, Nurgle can give you something you can't get anywhere else. "Killer" Nurgle are really a Chaos variant with cheap foulers, Regenerate, a few complementary skills you wouldn't pay for, and a harder time skilling the Blockers.

Right, well it's not even digging deep into the Stymie style, it's mostly just advertisement for all Block/SF + Wre/Fend the most of it, that's not deep enough either to stay up on topic for 62 pages tbph.

A nurgle coach going deep into NW-tentacles with Block/Guard plays a much better control game than SF/Block nurgle, but this is another discussion in itself mind, and with the advent of SF only builds here it isn't likely to gain any ground on this thread.

There's just such a huge discrepancy between what coaches who play a lot of online BB see daily and what coaches who play lot of TT claim here that it in itself has a tendency to build conflicts really.

Then there are tone issues, sure Smeborg has been neutral and stayed calm, but there are a bunch of statements (of his and others') which appear (to me) condescending unintentionally nonetheless.

[mattgslater]

Ah-ha! See, this is a great place to take the conversation.

Stymie Nurgle Warrior skills: there seems to be a relative agreement on Block as a first or first/second skill, and beyond that we have three skills to consider: Stand Firm, Guard, and Tentacles. To all Nurgle coaches: what kind of track would you take for a "stymie" oriented Nurgle build? What factors play into that decision? I can totally see why SF would be a big deal to a "Crossbow" coach who faces a lot of speed teams and wants to play holdout. I'm not convinced I'd take that route (I use a lot of SF but not that way), but in a speedy format it makes some sense.

For the time being, let's leave aside the relative merits of the Mighty Blow/Claw track and the relative place of Block in that picture, but after we've got a handle on the "stymie" build and usage conventions, we can go looking into the particulars of the "killstack" development style. I imagine the three major foci for that conversation will be on the Block skill, the distribution of "killstack" skills on hybrid teams, and the relative power of "killstack" vs. "stymie" teams in different venues. The latter will take some time to build,because seeing them side-by-side in a wide array of TFF coaches' TT leagues isn't something that happens quickly.

[Smeborg]

Smeborg, how many games is this typically applied over?

Good question. Typically it's over 25-45 games, which is quite long for a tabletop league, although I accept that it may be short in relation to an online environment.

I find stymie Nurgle works very well at low TV (say 100 to 150) and at high TV (over 180), with a slight dip of form in the middle range (between 150 and 180). Perhaps this is because the stymie skill combos (i.e. 2-3 per player) have a greater effect at higher TV (this is just a guess).

I have not found stymie Nurgle to suffer badly against slayer teams (I have played against plenty of them, but slayer teams and slayer mentality have not dominated the leagues). My experience is that stymie Nurgle suffers less damage than slayer Nurgle when playing another slayer team (slayer Nurgle suffer M.A.D.). This is consistent with what I would expect from the difference in play stlyes between the 2 types of team.

Hope that helps.

[Smeborg]

FINAL REPEAT OF MY QUESTIONS
--------------------------------
A quick summary:

I find slayer Nurgle to work well (and have never said otherwise). I also find stymie Nurgle to work well. In my experience as a coach in 2 different tabletop leagues in different cities (playing against the same coaches) over several seasons (plus several tournaments in Australia and New Zealand), I have found stymie Nurgle to perform better than slayer Nurgle (their win percentage and other stats are better). That is the basis (personal experience) for my views. I have not played either style online, therefore I cannot say whether the same equation would hold (for me) in those environments, which appear to be significantly different to the ones in which I play.

My question to those who assert that slayer Nurgle is better than stymie Nurgle is:

Have you genuinely and sincerely tried to play stymie Nurgle in the same environment in which you play slayer Nurgle? If not, what is the basis for your opinion on the relative performance of the 2 styles?

Unless the advocates of slayer Nurgle are able to answer positively to these questions, I am obliged to treat their points of view as mere assertion, until such time as they have tried both styles in the same environment. Please do not get heated - this is a simple matter of fact. I confess I am at something of a loss to understand why coaches have become so defensive-aggressive on this issue.

All the best.

[Smeborg]

Ah-ha! See, this is a great place to take the conversation.

Stymie Nurgle Warrior skills: there seems to be a relative agreement on Block as a first or first/second skill, and beyond that we have three skills to consider: Stand Firm, Guard, and Tentacles. To all Nurgle coaches: what kind of track would you take for a "stymie" oriented Nurgle build? What factors play into that decision? I can totally see why SF would be a big deal to a "Crossbow" coach who faces a lot of speed teams and wants to play holdout. I'm not convinced I'd take that route (I use a lot of SF but not that way), but in a speedy format it makes some sense.

For the time being, let's leave aside the relative merits of the Mighty Blow/Claw track and the relative place of Block in that picture, but after we've got a handle on the "stymie" build and usage conventions, we can go looking into the particulars of the "killstack" development style. I imagine the three major foci for that conversation will be on the Block skill, the distribution of "killstack" skills on hybrid teams, and the relative power of "killstack" vs. "stymie" teams in different venues. The latter will take some time to build,because seeing them side-by-side in a wide array of TFF coaches' TT leagues isn't something that happens quickly.

Matt - you are asking for a playbook, which I do not have time to write. I hope to write one for Plasmoid at the end of this year, after the World Cup, where I expect to play Nurgle.

All the best.

[mattgslater]

Not really. Let me back off a little and ask an easier version of the same question, a section of the playbook as it were.

@ Anybody: How do you use your Tentacles Warrior(s)? How many you got? How's it working?

@ Smeborg: How do you position and use your SF players on offense and defense, against killer teams? I mean, I can see it on offense: having a whole bunch of ST4/SF and a little fodder makes it really easy to protect a midfield cage, but even so I'm used to needing a little Guard to make it hard to blitz with your killers.

Can you provide your most recent team roster? Do you track games played per player?

[Wanchor]

Not at all in the same vein as, "I don't care to read others' opinions, here, everyone, look at my own accomplishments."

Who are you talking about? I've read every post in this thread and I haven't brought up my accomplishments. I posted because I disagreed with Smeborg on some points (slayer teams mainly not focusing on the ball, the value of a slayer pestigor).

You're right; that wasn't warranted, and I was actually quite drunk. Whoops.

[Hitonagashi]

Not really. Let me back off a little and ask an easier version of the same question, a section of the playbook as it were.

@ Anybody: How do you use your Tentacles Warrior(s)? How many you got? How's it working?

@ Smeborg: How do you position and use your SF players on offense and defense, against killer teams? I mean, I can see it on offense: having a whole bunch of ST4/SF and a little fodder makes it really easy to protect a midfield cage, but even so I'm used to needing a little Guard to make it hard to blitz with your killers.

Can you provide your most recent team roster? Do you track games played per player?

Hmmm, I'm a Lizzie player, but I played this team recently
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=643544

It's an interesting balance...essentially, the BoN and Warriors are control, with tentacles block, guard, dodge, stand firm etc, and the pestigors are killer.

His win record is quite impressive. I've seen pure killer(such as RandomOracle's chaos) do better, but it seems to be working well for him.

[Carnis]

FINAL REPEAT OF MY QUESTIONS
Have you genuinely and sincerely tried to play stymie Nurgle in the same environment in which you play slayer Nurgle? If not, what is the basis for your opinion on the relative performance of the 2 styles?

Have I tried to play stymie nurgle?

There are a number of reasons I would never go "full stymie" as you require it (no mb, no claw, no piling on, no dirty player) simply because of the numbers which are mindnumbingly against it, giving up the ability to remove 2/3 of an opponent per turn per killer. Hence I will have to say no, I haven't and I won't.

As for hitonagashi's example (Stonetroll's Nurgle, a working stymie-slayer hybrid), I think it's very valid to build control + kill into the same team. In fact in my view the optimal nurgle team nowdays has only 3.5 killers, with the rest of the team specializing in ballcarrying (+AG, Surehands, blodge), control (guard), and ball-stealing skills (+AG, tackle, strip, even wrestle). I would not mass MB as skill #1 on all my NWs either, if I thought they could realistically gain skills before death otherwise.

Vicius also has a full stymie build team, but the record is not impressive:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=647576
He also has an impressive CD record with a stymie build:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=645063

My own record against him (all his teams) is 3-3-1 though...

Then to as to what is my basis of opinion then?

Experience playing such teams and lack of problems facing / beating them repeatedly.

Playing against opponents without killing skills or massive ballgrabbing skills (blodge/SS, high ma, high ag, lots of guard) on their side is extremely easy to outbash, outcas and outscore as a killer nurgle. The recipe is almost too easy to follow:
T1: Pickup ball, go out of blitzrange +1 square with the ballcarrier. High MA/AG ballcarrier good here.
T1-3: Secure own side of pitch, kill/KO players. Clawpombs & fouls good here.
T4-6: Form a midpitch cage, bring the ballcarrier into blitzing range. Guards & Tents good here.
T6-8: Move the ball to a player who needs the score (A nurgle warrior, potential pestigor), finish off opponents team (take targets of opportunity, claw them, if they are worthy, foul them).

On your defense half take the blitzes on ball that you can get, if you cant, then kill his players until he either a) has to score, b) has to let you blitz the ball. Focus on his killers and his dirty players first..

In my experience, wrestle/fend is not an issue to face as a killy/control-nurgle, simply put, the skills that would allow you to steal the ball will never actually get into base contact if you play good control/kill game.

[SunDevil]

It's largely a tone issue, Carnis. You and (especially) Jimmy have gotten abrasive, while the others on this thread (including other bash coaches) haven't.

Smeborg's passionate about his stymie style, and that's fine. That quote of his you keep providing is a reference to Smeborg's own experience; if his experience says that, then he should make a claim just like the one you keep harping on him for making. You do see the qualifier there, right? The one that identifies his conclusion as one drawn strictly from empiricism? It's got the same empirical basis that you Blackboxers are using, only with different evidence that yields different conclusions. Frankly, I'm taking that as support for my opinion that format and coaching proclivities are the big drivers of stylisitic efficiency, and that few team races have one exclusively superior style of play.

Part of the reason that this thread has been mostly about "stymie" styles is that "killer" styles are pretty obvious and don't really merit 62pp of tactical discussion. Another part is likely that there are a lot of teams to play "killer" with, but if you want a unique "stymie" experience, Nurgle can give you something you can't get anywhere else. "Killer" Nurgle are really a Chaos variant with cheap foulers, Regenerate, a few complementary skills you wouldn't pay for, and a harder time skilling the Blockers.

+1.

I had another post written out but deleted it because mattgslater summed it up perfectly.

[mattgslater]

I figured the Wrestle/Fend Rotters were so you couldn't PO the D-line. But Smeborg means to put it on Pests, and there I scratch my head.

I still don't get the idea of Fend on multiple Pests, or Wrestle/Fend as a combo on a Pest. I could see Pestigors with either; Fend is a good #4 on a carrier and Wrestle is a good #1 on a hunter, but I'd only take one of each. Smeborg, how do you use that combo, especially en masse?

[Alu-Cinator]

My feeling is that Smeborg is a creative coach, almost an artist's theory that tries to compose new ways of managing teams (stymie style for Nurgle), teams that are known to work well with classic recipes (killer style for Nurgle).

Finally, maybe these teams will continue to run forever with these old recipes and most coaches will fail to capture the essence of these new strategies which they may appear weak or inadequate in their eyes while they will perform miracles for those who will be able to open their minds to new tactical horizons.


Please, consider this just as a feeling.