dodging past low AG players

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dodging past low AG players

Post by valedictor »

Hi guys,

One other observation i made during a game I played last week. I was playing dark elves against undead. During the course of the game, my blitzer made more than a few dodges against skeletons, wights, zombies.. all AG 2+ players. (mostly succesfully!) During the closing stages of the game, my blitzer had the ball again, and only had to dodge past a mummy (AG 1) to reach the end zone to give me a 3-0 victory.

Of course, he failed :)

It seemed kinda strange to me that it is exactly the same dodge roll required to elude a really agile guy as it is to nip past a slow lumbering character. The only modifiers are to do with the dodger (his AG) and the number of opponents (the tackle zones on the square dodging to). There is no recognition of the opponent's agilty and ability to interfere with the dodge. (yes, i know that various skills like 'tackle' can also affect things..i was only considering a basic example with undeveloped players)

Now obviously, you couldn't practically consider the defensive agility every time you make a dodge roll, that would just add yet another modifier to calculate each time, slowing the turn down even more.

However, what i thought would have been a good idea was that whenever a player with AG 4+ only has to dodge through tackle zones imposed by one or more opponents with AG 1, then he is permitted a +1 on his dodge roll, or some other positive bonus. Any other confrontations such as AG4 v AG2, or AG3 v AG1 to give two common examples would play just as they do in the rules. I.E: it's only when there is a difference in AG's of +3 that the dodger would get this modifier. (If there is an AG1 defender and one or more AG2+ defenders also, then treat the situation as normal)

Looking through the stats, i see that only mummies and saurus plus a handful of big guys have AG1, and AG4+ is relatively uncommon too when you consider all the races and positions available. Therefore, the frequency of these '+3 AG' dodges would be very low anyway; certainly not so common that it starts to become an annoyance in my opinion. It would then have the desired effect of making it that little bit easier to dodge your very AGILE players past very UNAGILE players, while keeping the vast majority of dodges in the game, (i.e: all the non '+3' dodges) exactly as they already work.

Being a rookie, i have only had time to paint up a few teams so far, and as undead and dark elves are two of these, then this situation has popped up a few times (but none more anoying than that mummy swatting my blitzer into the dugout!) :) My opponent agreed that the rule made sense, and we kinda adopted it as 'the +3' rule'.

It seems to play fine for us, but i was wondering firstly, what you guys thought of it, and also, with your vast experience of playing the game, do you see any faults with it, or envisage any potential problems it may cause in the long run? (i.e: once players have had time to develop a bit and acquire skills which may make it all too complicated). If all is well on both these counts, i'll make it one of my official house rules...

C'mon... a gutter runner has gotta fancy his chances of legging it past a mummy more than he does against a wardancer, surely??? :)

Looking at this post now, would probably have been more appropriate in the house rules section... sincere apologies for that, but as i still feel very much the novice, this newbie forum seems the best place for me! I'll endeavour to post in the right area next time :)

Look forward to your comments, all the best, John.

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Post by valedictor »

It did occur to me somewhat belatedly (i.e:after i posted the last message!) that from the defenders point of view, his attempt to foil the dodge through his tackle zone could hypothetically take a number of forms, for example, an defender with average Ag and average strength could be considered to be tripping, pushing, and grabbing at the dodger, whereas the more 'solid' defender (that mummy for example) would opt for a simple forearm swat across the chest... is this the reasoning why dodging past agile/unagile defenders is treated as the same difficulty? (i.e: each defender is effective in his own chosen way) Just a thought. Even so though, i think the really agile guys would still prefer their chances of ducking under a high-swinging swat from a mummy, than against a typical lineman-stats guy with trips, pushes, grabs AND some more physical means in his opponent-stopping repetoir... :)

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Post by DoubleSkulls »

A lot of people, myself included, tend to think of BB as a game, not a simulation. In game terms the current system works well, and the consistency helps speed up game play. Also high AG players 5/6 are very rare and have enough advantages already.

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Dodge

Post by Relborn »

I agree with Ian there was in 2nd edition an relation of AG between the Tackler and the Dodger. But the whole thing slows down the whole gameplay.

So I would say: leave it as it is -it works and is simple

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Post by valedictor »

Yup, on the whole i agree with you both, best to keep it simple, but as both you and i noted, players at those ends of the range are pretty rare and so the frequency of this occurring is relatively low anyway, therefore (only in my opinion and limited experience) not a huge problem in terms of slowing down gameplay..maybe a handful of dodges per game at most. Still, maybe i'll change my mind if i pit my dark elves against any lizardman team i put together in the future (6 saurus maximum on the field could well be situation which jams it all up!)

It seems to work pretty well amongst my small circle of friends thus far anyway; most seemed to find it quite amusing picturing the scene of the poor hapless mummy, somehow finding himself as the last guy between an elf and the end zone, flailing his arm fruitlessly at said elf, connecting with nothing but fresh air (perhaps slightly pungent air, considering the proximity of a rotting mummy and a somewhat sweaty elf) :)

Who am i kiddin, knowing my luck, the mummy will still probably clobber him anyhow :)

Ah well, i'll keep it experimental for now anyway, Many thanks for your feedback guys...

Cheers, John

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Post by DoubleSkulls »

But the fast elf can just run around the mummy anyway

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Post by valedictor »

Not in tight situations where passage through the tackle zone is the only avenue of rewarding advancement (in my example, my blitzer only had the the edge of the pitch to work with, and motion to bypass the mummy entirely would have left him short of the endzone or in the crowd. I would argue that the elf would be confident (and arrogant?) enough to take the short, but admittedly more perilous route to glory.

Obviously if it had been a league game, i would have probably have had more of a mind to look after my valuable blitzer and not subject him to unneccessary dangers, especially as i was already sitting on a 2-0 scoreline :)

John

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Post by Oderus Orungus »

This reminds me when we started our leage up that dodging was set up wierd. The modifiers were for dodging into tackle zones and not how many tackle zones you were dodging from. Since its free to move into tacle zones why is it this way. I just had to tell the guys SHUT UP THATS WHAT THE RULES SAY!!!!
Anyone every mention this before?

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Post by valedictor »

dammmit... that mummy just caught me in exactly the same way again... i just can't resist 'route 1' when it's offered...

john 8)

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Post by Diesel »

i just can't resist 'route 1' when it's offered...
I shall have to remember that when we get together... :wink:

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Post by Marcus »

Oderus Orungus wrote:This reminds me when we started our leage up that dodging was set up wierd. The modifiers were for dodging into tackle zones and not how many tackle zones you were dodging from. Since its free to move into tacle zones why is it this way. I just had to tell the guys SHUT UP THATS WHAT THE RULES SAY!!!!
Anyone every mention this before?
(1) You don't hurl yourself into a player coming towards you because you can't be sure if he's going to step you or hit you.

(2) Once he tries to get away from you you can try to bring him down.

(3) Once he is moving into the clear it doesn't matter how many of you are going for him, if he's in the clear, he's in the clear.

(4) However, if he's trying to get away from you but is heading for your teammate, he's got less room to move, and your teammate is probably going to help out because point (1) is less likely to apply.

The model makes sense to me. Maybe somewhat counterintuitive from a game standpoint at first, but fairly sensible.

Marcus

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Post by DoubleSkulls »

Marcus wrote: (1) You don't hurl yourself into a player coming towards you because you can't be sure if he's going to step you or hit you.
Yes you do, you just spread your arms out wide and grab them. It's known in the trade as "a tackle" :wink:
Marcus wrote: (3) Once he is moving into the clear it doesn't matter how many of you are going for him, if he's in the clear, he's in the clear.
In real life if you are in the clear then its largely a matter of speed. However if speed is approximately equal multiple tacklers helps because its much harder to avoid the flailing arms and legs of two or three people than just one.

I think the rules work just fine, but they aren't intuitive.

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Post by Marcus »

Don't know what football you played as a kid Ian but standing there with your arms out is going to get you "Maori Sidestepped". You have to go in hard into a tackle or you get hurt.

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Post by Deathwing »

Marcus wrote:Don't know what football you played as a kid Ian but standing there with your arms out is going to get you "Maori Sidestepped". You have to go in hard into a tackle or you get hurt.

Marcus
*..Chuckle...* Not familar with the term 'Maori Sidestepped' TBH, but it's still crystal clear from my rugby playing days... :D :D :D

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Post by DoubleSkulls »

Marcus wrote:Don't know what football you played as a kid Ian but standing there with your arms out is going to get you "Maori Sidestepped".
I played rugby in my youth. I've heard its quite popular in the colonies. Did you ever play? Or were you too worried about the snakes hiding in the grass?

:wink:

You use your arms to tackle, either to grab onto them, for balance or to help channel you towards them. Also if you don't use your arms you have to hit them harder - enough to knock them right over.

I never said anything about standing still either - if someone is running in your direction and you're static you are going to get side stepped. Even I have side stepped opponents and I was a big clumsy lock.

Ian

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