Reconsidering the ruling on Khorne?

[Fassbinder75]

Luckily, I have no power

How do we know you don't? I've never seen or heard from the actual NAF president, he could be a figment for all I know!

By the way, thanks for the full game stats file.

[sann0638]

This is he: http://talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopi ... 81&t=39280

Working hard behind the scenes!

[plasmoid]

Hi Harvestmouse,
maybe this is worth a new thread, but are you up for some brainstorming?

If you've happened upon the thread where I've been kicking around various buffs for the roster, then you know that there are several people out there who think the roster doesn't need any buffs at all. I suspect they'd scream at the S-linemen.

You may also have seen some of Garions suggested alternative rosters(?). IMO, plenty in character, but totally and completely broken beyond repair.

So - I was wondering: What would be - in your eyes - the minimum changes that would make the roster acceptable?
Just curious.
Cheers
Martin

[besters]

Luckily, I have no power

How do we know you don't? I've never seen or heard from the actual NAF president, he could be a figment for all I know!

By the way, thanks for the full game stats file.

I lost to Beppe the year he won the NAF Championship in Nottingham, I can vouch that he exists, good guy too!

[harvestmouse]

Heya Plasmoid,

This the second time I write this.....I didn't realise the site times you out, so I'll make it brief(er)......Ok I have been playing with a Khorne list for a while. Garion also has a list, there are a lot of similarities with mine, however they aren't the same. Here is his list.

https://fumbbl.com/help:KhorneDt

For me I think the Cyanide list isn't a total disaster, I like the frenzy theme. If you have blanket frenzy, it starts to become a neg trait. I played a high TV Norse team for quite a while and I had 5 frenziers for a while, and it's too much. Anymore than 4 and it starts to become more and more a negative skill. I also think with a neg trait like blood lust, you can't have loner.

Where the Cyanide list fails is that like it or not the roster really needs better killing potential. Also of course Blood Letters and Blood Thirsters stats do not represent the beasties they are. I'm unsure on the name 'pit fighters' either. The names a bit confusing and unnecessary. Why can't we stick with Marauders or....Khorne Marauders if necessary.

0-16 (Khorne) Marauders 6 3 3 8 Frenzy GS/AP (options: move P to a normal access, give mutations as a double access).

0-4 Blood Letters 6 4 2 8 Frenzy, Instability, Regenerate GS/AP (options: make them 0-6 probably better, but safe to be conservative at first. Give them Juggernaut like the Cyanide roster and give that frenzy/Juggernaut combo)

0-1 Blood Thirster 6 6 2 10 Frenzy, Mighty Blow, Tentacles (the whip), Instability S/GAP (options: Juggernaut, if it's given to the Letters putting it on the Thirster as well for continuity, Wild Animal if the Thirster is too strong. This is and should be a majorly powerful big guy though).

New neg trait

Instability: The player is not of this world or even realm and suffers from temporal instability. If he fails a stability roll he pops back to the warp and will need a team wizard to bring him back again and place him on the bench.

Instability works very much like Blood Lust. At the start of the players turn he must roll a d6, if the roll is failed (you may use a team reroll or pro) the player is removed from the field at the end of the players action.

Instability differs from Blood Lust in 2 ways. 1. Failed rolls do not result in a turnover. 2. This is not a bite roll, there are no thralls.

Khorne has to be a killer roster, that's why it was a bad choice as the first additional roster. However killing is what they do. I have played 12 games with the above roster (albeit with a different instability rule due to client limitations) and they're doing surprising well. They have exactly 50% record and what has really surprised me is how quickly the Marauders have been skilling. 13 skills in 12 games on 8 of the 10 Marauders.

[Fassbinder75]

On the surface the GP access makes the Cyanide Khorne roster look meek. In practise it is a tremendously bashy roster due to the amplification effect of Frenzy and the presence of the Bloodthirster.
It plays like a Khorne team should (IMO), it just doesn't look like one on paper.

I think Garion has building a Slaves to Fluff Khorne roster achieves some goals at the expense of others. The theme is overplayed so much it is essentially a one-note roster as in there's only one way to play them and little scope for development beyond the kill, kill, kill track. Many people dislike Dwarves for the same reason.

I think your roster is better than his, but I like it less than the Cyanide one, mainly because I think yours is underpowered. What is the point of the Bloodletters? They're SO weak I wouldn't bother and just use the linemen. Do they still have Horns? Despite the better stats on the 'thirster he's missing claws, and is still stuck with the horrible Instability.
Also, with 100% Frenzy, how do you handle the ball?

Honestly I think you'd get a better CAS rate out of the Cyanide team - more of the players would spend more time on the pitch, and you'd have slightly better control over what happens with the ball. I'd get rid of the instability - but I expect you have fluff considerations there.

The main thing I dislike about fluff considerations for teams like this is that Slaves to Darkness Khorne is fundamentally incompatible with Blood Bowl. Bloodletters have black swords that are bound to them! How is that going to work on the pitch? Keep the intent and some compatible flavour, disregard the rest.

[harvestmouse]

I'm sorry, Blood Letters strength was a typo. They should be ST 4 not ST 3. I have edited my post. Of course their ST was one of my major issues with the roster.

I do see your point about the linos on paper and reality. I have played a lot of Norse but I wouldn't have expected the linos to skill so quickly. I think that will start to run dry though.

The frenzy is deliberate; as stated Khorne is all about the killing. Frenzy becomes a tool for killing, but a neg trait for the more finesse side of the game.

I dropped horns, but I'm not opposed to horns, they fit fine. Cost wise I'm not sure it's worth it though.

The Cyanide roster is extremely 'hitty' however not 'killy'. I know this is deliberate, due to the bad press that the S/M access Chaos rosters have. However if you're going to fix a problem, fix the problem instead of adapting rosters to compensate. Skillwise the Cyanide roster just doesn't rack up the cas as the team progresses.

I can see why the developed it like they did and that sure it doesn't break. However the G/M blanket access teams already exist, denying access with this one hardly fixes the problem.

[J_Bone]

Instability: The player is not of this world or even realm and suffers from temporal instability. If he fails a stability roll he pops back to the warp and will need a team wizard to bring him back again and place him on the bench.

Instability works very much like Blood Lust. At the start of the players turn he must roll a d6, if the roll is failed (you may use a team reroll or pro) the player is removed from the field at the end of the players action.

Wow... Instability sounds like it would be insane! If you don't get any inducements (so you can't get a wizard) and have already used your team reroll you could lose any your five most valued players for the game? Is that right? I like the idea of a new neg trait and the theme but knowing how often I roll bloodlust with my Vampires, I would be terrified of playing Khorne!

[Darkson]

I don't think he means a wizard as in the inducement wizard, more like a fluff wizard, just like have a fluff Necromancer for an Undead/Necro team.
At least I hope that's what he meant.

[Darkson]

Khorne team I'd allow:

0-16 Marauders 6/3/3/7 Frenzy, BFTBG G/ASPM 50K
0-2 Chainsaw-wielding Loonies 6/3/3/7 Chainsaw, Secret Weapon, No Hands, BFTBG
0-4 Bloodletters 6/4/2/8 Frenzy, Regen, BFTBG, Demonic GS/APM
0-1 Demon Prince 5/5/2/9 Wild Animal, Frenzy, Horns, Regen, BFTBG, Demonic S/GAPM


BFTBG - Blood For The Blood God - This player is only interested in the skulls, and scoring is of secondary importance. A player with this skill can never pick up the ball, only catch it if it scatters to their square. However, they get 3SPP for any causalities they cause (yes, even with Chainsaws).
Demonic - This players armour is never modified by any skill. However, the players grasp on this plane of existence isn't great, so any time they are KO'd they are considered to be Badly Hurt.

[harvestmouse]

Wizard is indeed fluff not an induced wizard. He auto locates your players in the warp and is paid with blood not gold coins.

It's still insane though. That's why I think 6 Letters aren't a problem. 7 players suffering from instability, you'll lose players. Which is a risk you maybe willing to take to up the mayhem.

An alternative to this instability would be 3rd edition ofab. Where players miss the drive if they fail the roll (you can still field 11). It's not so much fun, but works ok.

I've also considered a 'no hands' style Khorne (or chaos) roster. However I think they should be able to CPOMB skill up very easily, so probably lot of Claw/MB for starting. Ok I know yours isn't quite a blanket no hands. However the only way to win is to clear the pitch approach. Extremely unpopular, but gives the legitimate CPOMB fanatics a niche.

[babass]

Khorne team I'd allow:

0-16 Marauders 6/3/3/7 Frenzy, BFTBG G/ASPM 50K
0-2 Chainsaw-wielding Loonies 6/3/3/7 Chainsaw, Secret Weapon, No Hands, BFTBG
0-4 Bloodletters 6/4/2/8 Frenzy, Regen, BFTBG, Demonic GS/APM
0-1 Demon Prince 5/5/2/9 Wild Animal, Frenzy, Horns, Regen, BFTBG, Demonic S/GAPM


BFTBG - Blood For The Blood God - This player is only interested in the skulls, and scoring is of secondary importance. A player with this skill can never pick up the ball, only catch it if it scatters to their square. However, they get 3SPP for any causalities they cause (yes, even with Chainsaws).
Demonic - This players armour is never modified by any skill. However, the players grasp on this plane of existence isn't great, so any time they are KO'd they are considered to be Badly Hurt.

No player able to pickup the Ball?
Finaly Khemris are not that bad :p

[connexion]

Khorne team I'd allow:

BFTBG - Blood For The Blood God - This player is only interested in the skulls, and scoring is of secondary importance. A player with this skill can never pick up the ball, only catch it if it scatters to their square. However, they get 3SPP for any causalities they cause (yes, even with Chainsaws).
Demonic - This players armour is never modified by any skill. However, the players grasp on this plane of existence isn't great, so any time they are KO'd they are considered to be Badly Hurt.

I'm sorry but...

*facepalm*

[Chris]

BFTBG - Blood For The Blood God - This player is only interested in the skulls, and scoring is of secondary importance.

A theme of bloodbowl is no matter what crazies are playing and their love of slaughter, they still want touchdowns because secrety they are all really slaves to nuffle

[harvestmouse]

I like it as a theme, I also think it works well with Khorne. However to win they'd be looking at clearing the field and gaining TDs that way. Obviously it'd be a really unpopular team to play against though. So I think players should start with claw or mighty blow across the board, and have MSG access.

It's a niche concept. But TT has massive scope for weird little skills like 'BFTBG'.