A way to solve the foul dispute?

[MickeX]

In FUMBLL, there's always a lot of disputes going on about fouling. I really didn't understand the fuzz until I bumped into some players that weren't just whining when they lost - they also started fouling every turn instead of trying to play the game, ignoring IGMEOY and all other tactical aspects. It's a lot like they're conceding, but it takes time and gives them a chance to kill off or injury the opponents players.

The irritating part here is that a player can "risk" a penalty that has no effect after the match, while trying to do permanent damage to the opponents team. It's been discussed whether this should be countered by making foul penalties last for more than the current match.

Another way to solve it would be to limit fouling casualities to Badly Hurt only. This would be easily implemented, and at the same time it might do away with the "no fouling"-attitudes among many coaches of the league, which is limiting game play. With no permanent injuries at stake, fouling would be widely accepted as a tactic among others.

Note that this is not a general suggestion, but a try at coming up with a solution for leagues where coaches have way different opinions about fouling.

Micke

[wesleytj]

hmmm how about NO!

you can't take death out of fouling...for lots of reasons.

one is balance...imagine all the increased ageing rules we'd need. player turnover is too limited already.

another is flavor. you honestly mean to tell me the chaos warrior putting the boot in the halflings head is going to try not to kill the little chap? no man he's after death!

i really don't like this idea at all.

[Zombie]

I agree, that's a horrible idea. Attrition through fouling is needed to keep players in check and the game balanced.

Fouling is perfectly balanced rigth now, don't touch it!

[Toby]

Gennerally Speaking, all injuries should be limited to Badly Hurt in TOURNAMENT play, but in LEAGUES, the spicy thing IS the long term effect...

I want to throw another thing in here:

Allow Mighty Blow to be used on a Foul. WAIT. Second look. The evil coach uses one of his power blockers to foul... ok if he hits, he hits. But chances are your player is only stunned, and the bad guy gets sent off, thus preventing him from delivering about 8 more power plocks and armour rolls to your team.

Again one of those things where I think tactical aspects should not be limited.

And, yes give starplayer points for fouling. Why else should I risk my Big Guy to foul? If he could add Mighty Blow, and collects dire needed SPP, I would consider it. And if he gets sent off, the opposing coach can party a lot.

[MickeX]

Note that this is not a general suggestion, but a try at coming up with a solution for leagues where coaches have way different opinions about fouling.

...which pretty much sums it up. I'm not advocating a change of the rules. I'm trying to get fouls into the game in a league with people who don't find it fair. That means the house rule hardly would affect turnovers - those coaches don't play against people who foul anyway.

Micke

[Toby]

Hmm, its kinda hard to give you an advice...

I mean, most people who come in my room read "B-l-o-o-d Ball" Toby: It's Bowl. Other Person: ok. but blood. whats that ? me: "Football with Fantasy Cretures like Elves and Ocrs". Oh. Cool. Can I kill people ?

but in your case, banning the long term effect would be the way to go I think.

[Mestari]

weren't just whining when they lost - they also started fouling every turn instead of trying to play the game, ignoring IGMEOY and all other tactical aspects.

Well, doesn't that mean that ½ of their turns end with a player being sent off. Without DP they can reach a maximum rate of injuring a player once every 6 turns, with DP the rate can be inproved to 5/12 players per turn which is still less than the rate with which he loses players.
And if you only count serious injuries and deaths, the rate drops to 5/24...

If he manages to foul with DP every time, you get something nasty approximately once every five turns, assuming that he breaks AV automatically thanks to assists. Without the DP and with similar auto-break AV he goes down to once every twelve turns!

Certainly that is something that you can handle! When he concentrates on fouling, you concentrate on gathering SPP's in some other ways. And when he has sufficiently few players left thanks to players being sent off, you can start pounding his team to decrease his odds of hurting anyone even further.

[Zombie]

Well, doesn't that mean that ½ of their turns end with a player being sent off. Without DP they can reach a maximum rate of injuring a player once every 6 turns, with DP the rate can be inproved to 5/12 players per turn which is still less than the rate with which he loses players.

The rate at which you get ejected is 5/36 for the first foul, and 5/12 for the others. Remember to argue the call, it makes a huge difference. So even with the ref watching you, you get as many injured as you get thrown out, plus knockdowns, plus stunned. And the fouled player is supposedly better than the fouling one. Way worth it.

[Rufio of Montrose]

Hi:
It passed through my mind to try to make real injury when I couldn´t make enough TD´s to change the result of the game. It really doesn´t work, believe me (Finally I didn´t try it). It´s been done on me, he killed the coach, and for handicap he could make all the fouls he could per turn!!!
Well I won 3-0, while he concentrated on that, I played the game. And for the record, I ended up with only one player with miss for the game.

Rufio of Montrose

[MickeX]

If he manages to foul with DP every time, you get something nasty approximately once every five turns, assuming that he breaks AV automatically thanks to assists. Without the DP and with similar auto-break AV he goes down to once every twelve turns!

Yep, it's really not a problem balance-wise or anything. It's simply a psychological problem. I suppose it's something about the pointlessness of it that get's these coaches so worked up about it.

Micke

[Mestari]

The rate at which you get ejected is 5/36 for the first foul, and 5/12 for the others. Remember to argue the call, it makes a huge difference. So even with the ref watching you, you get as many injured as you get thrown out, plus knockdowns, plus stunned. And the fouled player is supposedly better than the fouling one. Way worth it.

I admit it, it was a generalisation and not entirely accurate. However, given the fact that the head coach too can be sent off, the real odds are not what you posted as they do not take that into account.

Whether it is worth it depends on the point of view. To me it is balanced: the fact that some can say that it's worth it but ensuring the breaking of AV and the odds of getting players thrown out makes other people say it's not means that the rule is fairly balanced.
I'm definitely not looking for a fouling rule that removes fouling from the game as it's definitely not worth it.
However, if my opponent starts fouling like that, I have no problem with it, I know that it's slightly more likely to give me the edge than to give it to him.

[Zombie]

I admit it, it was a generalisation and not entirely accurate. However, given the fact that the head coach too can be sent off, the real odds are not what you posted as they do not take that into account.

Yes they do. Once he gets ejected, you stop fouling!

Besides, you get two fouls per game at 6+ to get sent off, and you don't seem to be taking those into account either.

[Skummy]

I have no problem with it, I know that it's slightly more likely to give me the edge than to give it to him.

But remember, he's got a chance to kill you, and at worst he's just missing the rest of the game.

[D'Arquebus]

I'm with wes and Zombie on this one. There should definitely not be a limit on the injuries when fouiling.

In FUMBBL it is a completely open league. For myself anyone who whines, and not just 'ruefully reflects' on some dodgy dice, is marked down not to be played again anyway. I've too little time to play, to do so against sad cases. Someone who tried to kick me all the time wouldn't upset me unless they ALSO let me walk all over them in the actual game. I do not like people who give up because something has gone against them. I also think that the mentality of peole like that would not be dissuaded from fouling with your suggested changes. Alternatively they may just give up and so I would not play them again anyway.

Mickex said

Yep, it's really not a problem balance-wise or anything. It's simply a psychological problem. I suppose it's something about the pointlessness of it that get's these coaches so worked up about it.

I think I've already covered that. In an open league if peope are pointlessly losing the game then don't play them again.

As to the effectiveness of the fouling. So a player only faces a "rest of game" ban for potentially killing a player. It removes him from the pitch and leaves the rest of his better team mates on the pitch and outnumbered. Personally I usually try to bash my opponents out of the game rather then foul them out. If he has less people then me I can guarentee I will take time out to put all his players on the ground, particularily to stop his group fouling. That will possibly score me SPPs and also make his fouling much less effective.

[Icedman]

However, given the fact that the head coach too can be sent off, the real odds are not what you posted as they do not take that into account.

Yes they do. Once he gets ejected, you stop fouling!

The problem, Zombie, is that if a coach is willing to foul every turn regardless of the cost to his team (a "muppet", as Marcus once put it), he's not going to care whether or not his Head Coach is there to argue the call.

That said, lessenning the injuries on fouling really isn't the way to go. As MickeX said, its psychological. Nothing, possibly short of removing the rules from the game completely, will be enough for some coaches.