On the dwarfen roster replace the ogre with?

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 1:41 am

I should be removed because of fluff, and it should not be replaced because they don't need any help.

Dark Lord (retired) · Post by **Dark Lord (retired)** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 2:01 am

So what team needs a big guy?

That is the dumbest reason i have heard of. And what is this fluff you are referring to? WHFB is supposedly not a factor in Blood Bowl anymore.

Also I disagree with them not needing it. They need a big guy as much as orcs and chaos do.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 3:52 am

They need a big guy less than orcs or chaos. On orc teams, the throwers, goblins and linemen don't have access to strength, so you can't have a guard all around team like dwarves do. And chaos start with no skills. By the time they all pick up block, tackle and a few others, it's a bit late to get guard.

Dwarves, with block, tackle and guard after only one skill, really don't need anymore strength on their roster.

If there is one team in Blood Bowl that doesn't need a big guy (apart from undead who have 2 ST5 players that are not even considered as big guys), it's dwarves, no doubt about it.

Snew · Post by **Snew** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 4:01 am

Zombie wrote:I should be removed because of fluff,

I don't know what this means but I think I agree with it.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 4:10 am

Yeah, i'm missing a "t" there. Very funny.

Snew · Post by **Snew** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 4:15 am

Couldn't resist. I do i all the time.

Dark Lord (retired) · Post by **Dark Lord (retired)** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 5:34 am

Zombie wrote:They need a big guy less than orcs or chaos. On orc teams, the throwers, goblins and linemen don't have access to strength, so you can't have a guard all around team like dwarves do.

That would be a good point except that you neglect to mention that they get 8 players with ST access and 4 of them have ST 4. You also neglect to mention that it takes dwarves a very long time to earn guard on every longbeard. And that still doesn't explain in any way why dwarves need a big guy any less than orcs. Orcs may not have as many players with strength access but they have access to both catchers and blockers, agility skills and higher movement. So what you said is just a list of some dwarf strengths while you neglected the orcs strengths. That's cheap, substance free debating. Are you in politics?

Zombie wrote: And chaos start with no skills. By the time they all pick up block, tackle and a few others, it's a bit late to get guard.

Again a list of chaos weaknesses but no mention of their access to ST 4 players, their mutations and lack of statistical weaknesses. What makes their big guy so needed? I know what makes them weak and strong. Should I list dwarf weakenesses for you?

Zombie wrote: Dwarves, with block, tackle and guard after only one skill, really don't need anymore strength on their roster.

You list a defensive skill advantage and give that as a reason for removal of offensive stat strength. Silly. Those players you refer to also take several games to earn 6 points. It hardly equals a big guy advantage and certainly doesn't replace one. Yes the team has a strength. Wood elves have the abilty to get AG 4 and Blodge after only 16 points...so what?

Zombie wrote:If there is one team in Blood Bowl that doesn't need a big guy (apart from undead who have 2 ST5 players that are not even considered as big guys), it's dwarves, no doubt about it.

What about orcs who have 4 ST 4 blockers and 4 catchers and whom you consider too powerful? Like I said, if the orcs keep the choice of troll or ogre I see no reason why dwarfs should lose their big guy all together...especially when you can't provide any evidence to show a balance issue. I can list the strength and weaknesses of every team...doesn't mean anything, it just takes up space. For every strength there is a weakness on al of the teams. If you are trying to say that orcs are less powerful than dwarfs I think you should show me some better evidence than your opinion. Especially when your opinion in the past has been that orcs are the ones who are too powerful with 4 goblins and 4 ST 4 players.
My question was, "What team needs a big guy?"
So maybe we should start with: What are the reasons to justify a team getting a big guy?
It's my contention that no team needs a big guy. No team has an over powering weakness that can only be filled by a big guy. That alone negates everything you said. Every team was balanced without big guys so the answer is not in skill access or player stats. If your side wants to logically explain why dwarves should not have a big guy or decent secret weapons then I think the rest of us deserve something better than "They have strengths that team a and b don't have."
Then we could move on to: What makes the dwarfs need one less than orcs or chaos or wood elfs or anyone else?
Until we have logical criteria (not based on some arbitrary fictional book that has nothing to do with this game) that gives us a reason to assign big guys or not then this is all subjective fluff talk.

Wasn't big guy access assigned by Mail Order Trolls? If so, maybe we should examine the big guy access of every team?

Dragoonkin · Post by **Dragoonkin** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 6:14 am

I think if most teams are going to have a Big Guy, all of them should have one, or equivalent...even Elves.

I mean, when Amazons stare down a ST5 or 6 guy, what do they do? Not really a hell of a lot besides run and tie it up with a sacrifice. Undead, on the other hand, just hit it with a Mummy. So they're okay without a Big Guy.

Post by **Thadrin** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 7:22 am

Which is precisely why I advocate big guy availability being on an "exchange for existing power guy" basis: Ogre/mino for Warrior, Krox for Saurus etc.

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 7:53 am

Dark Lord wrote:I just don't understand why some people think the dwarves need to be taken down a notch.

Saying the dwarves should lose the ogre because "they don't need any help" is silly when the Orcs are sitting over there with 4 stunty players, 4 strength 4 players and a choice in Big Guys! I don't see any evidence that ogres on dwarf teams are causing any problems.
The dwarves have very few decent secret weapons as it is. If you remove the ogre it's unfair to replace it with the only secret weapon that is any good on a dwarf team! I see the Wood Elves and Orcs with big guys they don't need and access to good secret weapons but nobody complains about that. The deathroller is a poor replacement. Especially when they go up against teams with big guys AND secret weapons. Geez a goblin team with any amount of half assed strategy could remove the deathroller. It's an easy thing to take out...especially with bombs and chainsaws.
Please show me where these dwarf teams are that are running wild with ogres. I don't see them and I never have.

True. Every single word. There's no reason to take dwarves down a notch, except that people dislike dwarves.

The fluff reason is silly too - Ogres are a mercenary race and they definitely do fit in with the dwarves.

Post by **Thadrin** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 9:25 am

Last time I tried pointing all this stuff out I got accused of being a major Homer because I'm known as a Dwarf player...nice to know there are a few poeple who have the same POV as me.

Reduce Big Guys by all means, but it HAS to be accross the board.

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 9:42 am

I agree with Dark Lord, Mestari and Thadrin here, sure Dwarfs get Guard on most Long Beards after a number of games, but with 4 Str 4 BO/CW it is real easy to get rid of any number of Guards, because a line of Guarding Str3 players can be taken down easily by starting on a corner, never giving the Dwarfs a chance to use their Guard!

Sure; with Guard Dwarfs can get some extra assists; but with Mv4 and Ag2, it is very easy to prevent a Longbeard from getting to the position he needs to be at to use the Guard skill. 4 Mv 6, Ag 3 Blitzers, however, can be Very mobile when used well, and with Guard they can often get their assists wherever needed, if it is needed at all with those Str4 BO and that Str5 Big Guy!

R

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 11:34 am

Guarding longbeards only become really nasty when you've got Stand Firm too. Needed to push him away for the 2 dice block on his mate? Tough.

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 11:41 am

Which means that a) two increases on the Longbeard are needed
b) one of these increases must be a double

How many Guard + Stand Firm Longbeards do you expect to find on a Dwarf team after how many matches...

R

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Mon Apr 28, 2003 11:45 am

Dark Lord wrote:
Zombie wrote:They need a big guy less than orcs or chaos. On orc teams, the throwers, goblins and linemen don't have access to strength, so you can't have a guard all around team like dwarves do.
That would be a good point except that you neglect to mention that they get 8 players with ST access and 4 of them have ST 4. You also neglect to mention that it takes dwarves a very long time to earn guard on every longbeard. And that still doesn't explain in any way why dwarves need a big guy any less than orcs. Orcs may not have as many players with strength access but they have access to both catchers and blockers, agility skills and higher movement. So what you said is just a list of some dwarf strengths while you neglected the orcs strengths. That's cheap, substance free debating. Are you in politics?

You don't get it at all. I also neglected to mention that a lot more dwarf players start with block or tackle than orc players do. Catchers, agility skills and higher movement is irrelevant when discussing big guys. Dwarves don't need big guys because they can face other teams' big guys without any fear. I also forgot to mention that they're the only team in the game with a dauntless player. Another very good reason why they don't need a big guy at all.

Since the rest of your post follows the same line, i'd just be repeating myself if i answered it, so i'll leave it at this.