Proposal to vote on adding Khorne and Brets to NAF database

[spubbbba]

We see time and time again Cyanide do not understand this. Kislev Circus............that really is a fluff killer. The stats for Slann were based only on Slann, designed for that fantasy race only. Cyanide really are a menace when it comes to roster design and in my opinion can't be taken seriously.

To be fair, I think that is how Cyanide got round GW's rule of no froggies for slann. Also it was probably easier to design humans as they could base them on the Norse/human/bretonnian models. Using the Kislev fluff is easy too as it is just a load of Russian stereotypes.

Doing something like that does have quite a rich history as GW have long supported the "counts as" rule. If you want to include a something that doesn't have rules in the game then they suggested you find the model or army that fits it best and use that instead. There are some really awesome fantasy and 40K armies that do this such as an undead force made up of high elves or Orks using Grot models.

I've long proposed that people use the human roster or even Orcs for Bretonnians rather than the bland and pointless version in BB2.

*edit* gazumped by Darkson

[harvestmouse]

You are both right of course. GW has always promoted creativity. However there should be a standard starting point. In this case a race of "l am better than you super frogs". The stats and skills were based for slann and slann only. This being ; leaping, intercepting, stupidly expensive a bit better than the human race, frogs.

For me the roster absolutely won't work for any other race. It's far too specific. If they wanted a leap roster, better to make one, rather than a count as. Pogo goblins and orc cyborgs would be interesting.

[Moraiwe]

Cyanide have tried making their own roster, and have been blasted for it. Now they're trying to implement an established roster, and are being blasted for it.

There are simply too many people playing Blood Bowl for anything new to be implemented without a substantial amount of people hating the introduction. I firmly believe if you took any one of the established 24 rosters, removed it from history, and then tried to introduce it today it would suffer the same fate: lots of people blasting it for fluff/not being unique enough/balance reasons leading to the community being unable to widely accept it.

[dode74]

For me the roster absolutely won't work for any other race. It's far too specific.

This is a problem in your mind. As Moriawe says, they're in a no-win situation here and someone, somewhere, won't be happy. In this case it's you.

While they absolutely are at least partly culpable for the Khorne team (remember that GW were also in the process very early on here), what they are doing with Kislev is getting a known and enjoyed roster and putting it on the pitch in a form which does work (I'd have preferred Goblin Circus, but there you go). That you can't picture that statline as being anything other than frogs is a problem for you to deal with, but frogs are not appearing on the pitch again. What would you do, kill off the roster? Either way, it's not your decision. You don't have to like the decision being made, but at least recognise that it's not an easy situation and they are actively trying to improve the game.

[harvestmouse]

Re cyanide being blasted. From my point of view it's for the same reason each time. Each roster doesn't fit the theme it's trying to portray.

Complaints from a gameplay point of view..... Is that coming from serious players? I think all games suffer from this.

As for being original, this is a fairly new concept. After having 4 elven teams (all for fluff reasons).


This is clearly an attempt to add a new fantasy race and one at random. slann are probably the most different race out there. Nothing is similar. You had the warhammer race, then GW made a BB roster based off of that. The BBRC then converted that 2nd ed roster to fit LRB 5. it's a bespoke suit to fit slann ; you can't just take that suit and put it on a poorly thought up, half arsed idea.

Everything they do they're eroding the high detailed and credible world GW created.

[Darkson]

GW have said "NO FROGS" - it doesn't fit their world-view anymore (Slann now being fat, bloated, almost immobile). Cyanide should be given some credit (yes, I can't believe I'm saying that either) for getting the roster in by reskinning it, even if you don't agree with the reskin chosen [I'd have just made them another Elf roster, say Half-Elf].

Or do you think they should have just ignored GW, put Slann is "as is" and risked having the license removed and/or financial penalties?

[dode74]

Each roster doesn't fit the theme it's trying to portray.

That is very much a matter of opinion. And, as much as I respect yours, it is also a matter of opinion how important that is.

Everything they do they're eroding the high detailed and credible world GW created.

And yet GW signed off on it. It might even have been their idea. Certainly they are well aware of it and everything else Cyanide have planned.

[spubbbba]

Cyanide have tried making their own roster, and have been blasted for it. Now they're trying to implement an established roster, and are being blasted for it.

There are simply too many people playing Blood Bowl for anything new to be implemented without a substantial amount of people hating the introduction. I firmly believe if you took any one of the established 24 rosters, removed it from history, and then tried to introduce it today it would suffer the same fate: lots of people blasting it for fluff/not being unique enough/balance reasons leading to the community being unable to widely accept it.

Part of the annoyance with Cyanide adding Brets and Khorne was that they did this before all the other races were included. With BB1 you at least got a bunch of extra teams, stars and features with Legendary and chaos editions. But they never did manage to get all the races into the game.

However with BB2 the extra races are all DLC's so you got Brets instead of one of those and they still haven't got all 23 (or 24 with Kislev as Slann) NAF approved teams.

[harvestmouse]

Or do you think they should have just ignored GW, put Slann is "as is" and risked having the license removed and/or financial penalties?

Looks like I am in the minority here..........fair enough.

My opinion is that the roster and idea is SO bespoke that nothing else would fit. Sure, individual creativity is fine, but not as the standard for me.

And for me if it doesn't fit, don't make it. I believe they should have made their own leap cookie cutter roster; like GW are doing with placating the Pact and Khorne fans (with those experimental rosters).

Slann are so different to anything else, nothing should play like them. The timeline was:

*Slann were an expensive and elite Warhammer army with rich fluff.
*The BB team took Slann and created a team that would play like Slann for BB. This team has specialized skills.
*The BBRC took that 2nd ed BB Slann team and modernised it for LRB. Looking at every aspect of this bespoke design (and they did a fantastic job by the way).
*Cyanide (yes under pressure from the fans) then take this extremely bespoke roster of very unhuman creatures and slap on some BS theme.

For me it doesn't work, Slann are just far too different. Where as several other leap themes could have worked. My tuppence anyway.

[harvestmouse]

Each roster doesn't fit the theme it's trying to portray.

That is very much a matter of opinion. And, as much as I respect yours, it is also a matter of opinion how important that is.

Everything they do they're eroding the high detailed and credible world GW created.

And yet GW signed off on it. It might even have been their idea. Certainly they are well aware of it and everything else Cyanide have planned.

I think it's a case of where the game came from and where do you want it to go?

The first edition of BB was pretty poor, it basically relied on the fluff and the imagination and the dreams of the players. Over time this got better and better and so did the game until we reached 3rd ed. Early 3rd ed had highly detailed fluff that drew the players in, believable creatures with reason to be on the pitch and a great playing game.

Since then we've seen less credible additions, but that add diversity. The cookie cutters, Pro Elves with extra skills and since then more and more diversity.

Now we are at the stage where game balance is the most important element and adding something new to add even more race diversity. To the point where new races are now not only bolting on fluff, they're bolting on skills too (aka Brets).

I guess it depends on where you want the game to go. Do you want it to be like League of Legends where simply you have an ill-collection of fantasy-esque creatures battling together in a well balanced but basically fluffless game.

It's cool, I get it. It's just a great great shame that the original premise and years and years of world creation (that originally got people playing) no longer matters.

[Darkson]

So you'd rather see no Leap/VLL roster in BB2, given that "yes, I want Slann" is not an answer that can happen?
And aren't GW supposedly doing a Kislev-circus team at some point?

[harvestmouse]

Would I rather have the slann roster rebadged or removed? Removed.

Does that mean we cannot have a leap /vll roster?

Not necessarily. Didn't 2nd ed greaser geargrinder come with vll and leap?

Lots of scope there. I am all for new rosters.

[dode74]

Would I rather have the slann roster rebadged or removed? Removed.

I think that's very short-sighted, personally. It's a roster which we know works and for which we have plenty of data. Why reinvent the wheel?

[harvestmouse]

Because of the history of the evolution of the roster. there are too many aspects that won't fit a human roster. This roster was specifically created to fit the characteristics and GW portrayal of BB slann. Shoehorning into another theme, then Shoehorning it into a theme we would quite like to add again damages that credible fantasy world. No other race is like slann ; no other race can fit that roster.

Again lol is the best example of supreme balance, but so poor fluff nobody cares. If that's what you want, then fine. The gaming world is full of them. However games with indepth, inspiring, world building quality fluff are much harder to find.

So for me it'd be a great shame to lose that for a poor man's esport.

[Gaixo]

I'm with HarvestMouse to a point. Kislev is a dopey theme, particularly for this team. Haven't people always blanched at AV4 humans?

Wouldn't have minded AS much if it was Tzeentchian blobs or something.