Proposal to vote on adding Khorne and Brets to NAF database

[Baxx]

Good explaination.

Now that we have Savage Orcs doing the all-out frenzy game, that role is no longer unique for Khorne.

Another thing that is comparable to fantasy is that frenzy in part is designed to possibly give 2 blocks against a target. Giving mark of Khorne to a chaos unit used to give +1 Attack.

The Bloodthirster would have to be STR 8 or something to hold that really unique position then?

I don't really want a roster specifically designed to kill my players with hard-earned level-ups. Chaos is/was bad enough.

How about scrap Khorne and make Savage Orcs official instead?

[Bakunin]

No Frenzy on bloodletters. That's it, for me.

+1

And no regen on the heralds

[Darkson]

Well explained harvestmouse - the choice of Khorne was a stupid one, if you're not going to make them Khorne-like. The roster presented is like saying "we're going to add a new player to the dwarf team - they need a MA8 AG4 A access position, right?".

[Gaixo]

Now that we have Savage Orcs doing the all-out frenzy game, that role is no longer unique for Khorne.

How about scrap Khorne and make Savage Orcs official instead?

A semi-official roster for savage orcs predates Khorne by at least 15 years or so. The issue now, as then, is that no one is playing them.

[Darkson]

Maybe because the NAF has never tried to give them a "semi-official" seal of approval, even though they're just as valid a house-rule team as Khorne or Brets are?
If all a team needs is "someone playing it" I'm breaking out the Fimir.

[Gaixo]

They'll fit right in with the druids.

Organizers are allowed to include any race they want in their tournaments (for better or worse). The NAF didn't do anything to encourage Khorne (at least prior to this point).

[frogboy]

At this point you may as well add every known team and let the TOs decide what to include.

Add teams that anyone wants from Stunty Leeg/Secrete League from FUMBBL etc.

That way you protect your sanctioning and the player base who either 1) want to play ranked/recorded games or 2) want to play wackey teams.

[Baxx]

A semi-official roster for savage orcs predates Khorne by at least 15 years or so. The issue now, as then, is that no one is playing them.

I've been using them for months in DZ1 and DZ2. Super fun.

[Purplegoo]

There is always one.

I have a lot of sympathy with Vanguard's post. I like stuff to be thematic and fluffy, but I like it to be reasonable from a gameplay point of view far more. My Warhammer lore is not my strongest suit, but would the big guy not be Strength 10+ ClawPOMB squared if we were sticking rigidly to the fluff (sorry if that's wrong)? For me, so long as the theme is broadly right, it's a minor concern. I appreciate that's not true for everyone, before I'm told otherwise.

Regardless. Khorne, Savage Orcs, Super-Norse, whatever you want to call them, I'm not at all sold that they're interesting. I've tinkered with a mass Frenzy roster in a house ruled league, and it's fun for a game or two, then you realise why you a) learned not to build your Norse that way and b) that it's hardly novel enough to put up with, you've played with Norse. If you argue it's novel at all. I think it's a dull roster (for good reason from Cyanide's / the design point of view, I grant you) and there are multiple better gimmicks out there. They're no Slann.

However, that stuff is all personal and varies coach to coach. The global issue with them being a dead roster not in the current rules is far more pressing, surely?

[spubbbba]

I wish Khorne had been a bit more interesting, the frenzy angle was ok, but we already had norse being able to start with 5 frenzy players. The bloodthirster was a silly addition as he's too big and powerful for the game but that was an easy fix to make him a Daemon prince of Khorne.

My real issue was the bloodletters, they just didn't work for me as they really didn't need horns as theirs are mostly decorative. I'd have liked to see them being something like vampires where you had 0-6 very powerful players but with a serious drawback in the shape of wild animal. That could have made them dangerous and very killy but not overpowered.

The pit fighters were just kind of bland but I see the reason for adding them as there are only 2 humanoid daemons. Probably why the team was not a great idea in the first place.

[Valen]

My stance on this subject has changed over the last 6 months.

Histrocially I was always for allowing these races to ensure any newcomers (from the cyanaide game) felt at ease as it was races they were familiar with.

However, with the GW shift in releasing and suporting BB again I am all for allowing the new teams to be added as and when they are official from GW (not those ridiculous star players though).

These races do not appear to be suported by GW and even cyanide has dropped Khorne. So I do not see the point in adding these at this point.

Slann is a completely different discussion, that race is out there and widely used I would definitley not like a move to remove them.

[dode74]

Just found this. Not fussed either way whether NAF add Khorne/Brets/Simyin/Whatever to their database, but a little info some of which is not new to some:

1. The roster works, but it is not everyone's idea of Khorne. We had no say on the team and player names, so we went for something which was fun and a different style of play and based the roster on Savage Orcs, which Tom knew worked. We'd not have chosen Khorne, but it was more important to not make another killy team than to be 100% fluffy. Your percentage of fluffiness you would ascribe to the roster will vary, but that was seen as secondary to not breaking the game. And I would argue rightly so: given the constraints I'd do the same thing again. With no constraints I'd be content with the roster but would call it something else entirely.

2. Khorne is in the database files for BB2. I'd not be surprised if they made an appearance at some point in the future. Pact, Khorne, in a BB2:CE some months after LE release, perhaps.

3. Slann will appear in BB2 in the form of Kislev Circus. The roster is identical to that of Slann.

[Lychanthrope]

Thanks dode74 for the info. I've been calling the Khorne team a Daemon team for some time for the reasons you state. Not to mention that the Daemon team I was looking at building was Slaanesh in nature.

[harvestmouse]

The problem for with Dode's (and Vanguard's) perspective is the perception of Blood Bowl and the original intention. We are living in an era where e-sports are rocketing. Possibly the number 1 e-sport right now is a fantasy game called League of Legends. In this game, game balance is paramount and comes before anything else. On the other hand fluff is less important. So much so, it's actually pointless and doesn't add anything to the game what so ever. It's clearly bolted on, after designing new characters and has to be pushed so that the fluff is even read.....which on the whole it still isn't. This is ok for League of Legends as the player-base dream of becoming great 'lol' players, their is no immersive feel what so ever.

However Blood Bowl was not created like this. We have a rich fantasy fluff base that came first (Warhammer), which was then adapted (Blood Bowl) and from that a game was made. The idea of a competitive sport/game where 100s of players competed was a dream of course, but the reality of today playing tournaments and online couldn't have been envisaged. If you design Blood Bowl the same way Riot design 'lol' you will get the same result. A super competitive game, with bolted on fluff that is meaningless. There is a tipping point, where that would happen. Where that tipping point is, is anybodies guess but it's there. And without the superb fantasy world that is Blood Bowl; Blood Bowl is half the game it should be.....less for me.

We see time and time again Cyanide do not understand this. Kislev Circus............that really is a fluff killer. The stats for Slann were based only on Slann, designed for that fantasy race only. Cyanide really are a menace when it comes to roster design and in my opinion can't be taken seriously.

[Darkson]

We see time and time again Cyanide do not understand this. Kislev Circus............that really is a fluff killer. The stats for Slann were based only on Slann, designed for that fantasy race only. Cyanide really are a menace when it comes to roster design and in my opinion can't be taken seriously.

To be fair, this isn't Cyanide's doing, they were told not to do Slann by GW, same as Slann [as they are now] won't be in BB2016.

Otherwise I agree with your post.