Using Commissioned Painting Services or DIY?

[Darkson]

It's not a joke. It's 100% true. And if we can't blame them then historically we'd go over and beat them up (sadly no longer an option ).

[VoodooMike]

Yes, there isn`t an endless amount of time. Yet it is possible to focus on one thing.

A given person can specialize or diversify, certainly, but barring a natural talent for something you only have so much time and energy to devote to ALL the things you want to engage in. I could probably become a proficient minis painter.. a proficient guitar player.. a proficient tennis player... but I'll almost certainly not be as good as someone who picked on of those three and focused on it. Add to that the limited free time the typical adult has between work and family, and time management is dividing up a very, very small pie.

But I do not expect people, or let`s rather say "the people I play with", since I usually think about situations that occur, to focus onto one special facette of the hobby.

Only one facet may interest them. These are, afterall, hobbies - they're meant to be enjoyable pastimes that people engage in to reduce stress and make their lives more positive, overall. If one part of a given hobby doesn't do that for them, and there are ways to circumvent that aspect, you should assume they will go that route... and, in fact, understand why rather than look down on it.

And as people expect me to learn the rules to play the game, I can expect from others to give their best at painting their stuff.

I don't think learning the rules of the game and painting your own miniatures are on par as aspects of Blood Bowl. You quite literally cannot play the game if you don't know the rules. You can play the game just fine with unpainted minis... or a selection of plastic smurfs from the 1980s... or whatever. No doubt you could attend Blood Bowl events JUST to show off your well-painted minis without actually playing, too, if you were so inclined. You'd be a bit like... a minis cosplayer!

By the way, you have to explain to me what epistemological means, as I am not a native speaker of the english language.

Epistemology is the study of valid knowledge.. I was simply saying that there is far, FAR too much knowledge and ability in the scope of human endeavor for any one person to even scratch the surface of all of it... so instead we divide it up among the lot of us. Some people learn to build houses, some people learn to program computers, some people learn the intricacies of the law, some people learn the best way to kill people, some people learn how to save the lives of the people those other people try to kill, and so on.

Telling people to just "get good at" something they have no ability at is usually not fully embracing that idea.. it's imagining that because YOU got good at it, they have equal time and interest to apply to it and should sacrifice the things they focus on that YOU can't do, in order to at least partially mirror your expertise. If it were necessary for the shared hobby then that'd be reasonable, but we don't all agree on how necessary it is.

[mikeyc222]

i think VoodooMike hit the nail on the head for me. i LOVE playing the game. i HATE painting the minis (even though i am fairly decent at it). this is my hobby... well, one of them anyways. while i have painted most of my minis myself, if i see a good deal on a painted team, or find someone whose style i appreciate who will paint minis for me at a very reasonable price, then i'm going to have a team that i didn't have to paint. why? because i can get straight to the part of the hobby that i love while being able to skip the part that i hate.
if painting all your own minis yourself works for you, then great! but the perception of you being judgmental comes directly from comments like you don't think anyone should use a painting service if they are physically able to paint, or that if you are expected to learn the rules of the game then you can expect others to put their best effort into painting their own minis. those statements certainly come across as very judgmental. while i agree that painted minis certainly help more with game immersion than unpainted minis, here's the thing... as long as the minis are painted, who cares how they got that way? seriously. at the end of the day, it really isn't your business what people do with their money or their minis. if you play against someone with a team that someone else painted, is that really going to detract from your gaming experience? if so, then that is your issue, not someone else's.
i hope this post doesn't come across as angry, as i am not the least bit angry. i am simply providing a different point of view.

[Darkson]

I don't paint because I don't like it, the results are still rubbish (after 20 years of trying), it's a chore.
If I could afford it I'd get everything painted by others.

I also really dislike some within painting "stable" constantly patronising people like myself - "keep going, you'll learn to like it" and "you'll improve the more you do" - yeah, I'll keep painting until I die, maybe I'll produce some decent that I enjoy 5 mins before I snuff it.

How can you expect to be good at something you don`t like? It simply states you`re lacking the drive to do it. If not, I can make you same offer as to nightwing.

And there's the "patronising" I'm talking about. It has zero to do with a lack of drive, if I really have to paint a team (like a club challenge) I can, though it looks awful, it has everything to do with I don't like it.

I'll repeat that, because you managed to overlook it the first time.

I...DON'T...LIKE...IT.

You could skype me to your hearts content, it's still not going to make me enjoy it anymore, just as you could make me a fresh salmon and cucumber sandwich every day and I wouldn't like that.

You enjoy painting, and that's great. I don't, and as such I don't want to waste my free time on an activity I don't enjoy.

[spubbbba]

i think VoodooMike hit the nail on the head for me. i LOVE playing the game. i HATE painting the minis (even though i am fairly decent at it). this is my hobby... well, one of them anyways.

I'm kind of the opposite, love painting models but don't play much anymore and would find playing 6 games over the space of a weekend a bit of a chore.

But it has worked out as by taking on commissions I push myself to try new things and gives me a deadline to avoid procrastinating. Also means my models are with people who enjoying using them and avoids the models being sat in a carry case for years not doing anything. Plus the small amount of money I earn allows me to buy loads more models.

[DinoTitanedition]

Only one facet may interest them. These are, afterall, hobbies - they're meant to be enjoyable pastimes that people engage in to reduce stress and make their lives more positive, overall.

I don`t recall saying, that people should be interested in all facettes instead of one - actually it is the other way around. If people don`t want to paint, that is okay. But the game itself, at least in it`s least iteration, is offerig all facettes. Therefore one can assume, that all parts of it are relevant for the game.

If one part of a given hobby doesn't do that for them, and there are ways to circumvent that aspect, you should assume they will go that route... and, in fact, understand why rather than look down on it.

I would`ve agreed on this, until I read that:

I don't paint because I don't like it, the results are still rubbish (after 20 years of trying), it's a chore.

If not liking it, then why try it for twenty years? This indicates, that there is a sympathy for that field. Or how else should an illogic behaiviour like that be explained then? A lust for turture? I`m not judging...I`m doing all kinds of contact sports and there might be a certain enjoyment for destruction, towards and against one.

You quite literally cannot play the game if you don't know the rules.

Agreed......thou....it can`t be? My daughter had some old Warhammer minis in her hands and making sound like "CATCHING!" simulating swords hitting each other. I would say that is playing and don`t see why it could not be done with Blood Bowl as well. Of course it is not what people know Blood Bowl to be, but in general it is quite well possible. We all played like that at one point. But if that is incorrect...

or a selection of plastic smurfs from the 1980s... or whatever.

....then this is too. It is Blood Bowl after all. A persiflage of the sport american football and the inhabitants of the classic Warhammer universe. You can of course use the ruleset, but you are actually not playing Blood Bowl at that moment.

You can play the game just fine with unpainted minis...

That on the other hand is correct. I have started like that and decided later on, that I`d like to deepen the atmosphere through painted miniatures. But you could also use the afore mentioned generic paper stand ins, simply stating the position.

JUST to show off your well-painted minis without actually playing, too, if you were so inclined

There is actually only one reason I ever do something like this, which is to motivate myself to paint and a deadline can be a motivator sometimes. The legacyteam for example, was a situation that I could use to make someone happy (as someone is winning that team and I believe in this case I should try to deliver a nice present) and to practice a little bit without the neccessity of remembering the "recipe" for how to paint a multiple minis.

Other than that I would not do that out of the same reason I never participate at any kind of gaming tournament or painting contest - a competitive situation like that creates pressure and that often dampens the fun in a hobby. But that`s how I see it, other people might enjoy that and I`m fine with that.

Epistemology is the study of valid knowledge.. I was simply saying that there is far, FAR too much knowledge and ability in the scope of human endeavor for any one person to even scratch the surface of all of it... so instead we divide it up among the lot of us. Some people learn to build houses, some people learn to program computers, some people learn the intricacies of the law, some people learn the best way to kill people, some people learn how to save the lives of the people those other people try to kill, and so on.

Telling people to just "get good at" something they have no ability at is usually not fully embracing that idea.. it's imagining that because YOU got good at it, they have equal time and interest to apply to it and should sacrifice the things they focus on that YOU can't do, in order to at least partially mirror your expertise. If it were necessary for the shared hobby then that'd be reasonable, but we don't all agree on how necessary it is.

I like that. Will paste that in the next rulediscussion or when something new is released, that people aren`t used to. There`ll be another "Bretonnian team" one day Other than that I feel you misunderstood me. I never said I`d expect people to be "as good as" anybody. I merely expressed that this game consists of all hobbyfacettes, which is of course a subjective opinion. At this point I would simply think "give your best", as it is part of it. I never said one has to win a Golden Demon with their work, but that practise (did I spell that right Sann?) can bring one to a level one will feel they like, which is what I am saying, when I write "people should not use paint services". And I do not look down to people because I think that - I am pretty sure that you didn`t think about the simple "POW POW! KAPOOM!"-playstyle when you said you cannot play the game without rules. By stating this you made it obvious that you too have an expectation of a mandatory facette of this game and I do not judge you for that either. Everyone is free to speak out what they think the game should be like - discussing it, at least to me, also seems to be part of the hobby.

i hope this post doesn't come across as angry, as i am not the least bit angry. i am simply providing a different point of view.

No stress, I get that But...

but the perception of you being judgmental comes directly from comments like you don't think anyone should use a painting service if they are physically able to paint, or that if you are expected to learn the rules of the game then you can expect others to put their best effort into painting their own minis. those statements certainly come across as very judgmental

...out of curiousity - isn`t it judgemental as well to criticise me for having my own opinion on it, while wanting me to accept another? After all everyone is allowed to have one, no matter how much one dis/likes it.

while i agree that painted minis certainly help more with game immersion than unpainted minis, here's the thing... as long as the minis are painted, who cares how they got that way? seriously. at the end of the day, it really isn't your business what people do with their money or their minis. if you play against someone with a team that someone else painted, is that really going to detract from your gaming experience? if so, then that is your issue, not someone else's.

Good point. It is my issue and the way I handle it is mine to decide, correct? As for the introductionary question of this textblock - as I am not a competitive player, for me a playing Blood Bowl is another way of socialising. This could be again just me, but the way someone goes at his hobby tells you something about the person as well. Even unconsiously we all interprete various signs differently. My personal impression of people painting their stuff themselves is, that they try to get the most out of the game: playing, assembling, painting, and, in lack of a better word, writing (narrative, matchreports, and so on). This again leads me to believe the person on the other side of the table shares a common love for the hobby as a whole and it would be nice if the paths would cross again.

I also have the feel to correct something here, as I`m getting the impression people think I paint on a regular basis and believe what I produce to be of "quality". Most of the times I cannot paint for weeks due to the reasons mentioned by Mike earlier. I have a kid, a wife and other hobbies as well. A Golden Demon competitor would see my stuff probably as rubbish, others might think of it as a nice look - to me it matters that I tried to put effort into it. But that is Blood Bowl. I also enjoy playing "simple" boardgames as well. My family and me love to spend our evenings with that. But a "regular" game does not have the same gimmicks as a miniature game. Naturally I do not establish an expectation to paint something there. For me, that is a part that belongs to Blood Bowl.

I'll repeat that, because you managed to overlook it the first time.

I...DON'T...LIKE...IT.

As I stated earlier, this strange logic of this sentence gave a different impression:

I don't paint because I don't like it, the results are still rubbish (after 20 years of trying)

You could skype me to your hearts content, it's still not going to make me enjoy it anymore, just as you could make me a fresh salmon and cucumber sandwich every day and I wouldn't like that.

You enjoy painting, and that's great. I don't, and as such I don't want to waste my free time on an activity I don't enjoy.

Aaaaaw Darkson....do I sense some negativity here? Come ooooon, don`t be like thaaaat! I`ll limit our skype sessions to only three hours and won`t make you a fresh salmon and cucumber sandwich every day. I mean it doesen`t hurt it to be some hours old, right!? Thou I can recommend a nice lemonade or slice of bread with Nutella on it. But watch out! You might get sticky fingers eating it, so aaaaalways wash your hands before touching those brushes agaaaain

[DinoTitanedition]

COOKIES! What about cookies Darkson?

[Olaf the Stout]

Dino, I disagree that you can play Blood Bowl without knowing the rules. Your daughter may be playing with Warhammer miniatures (or whatever they were), but she is most definitely not playing Warhammer.

It's like saying you can play monopoly by throwing all the money in the air, "driving" the car around the board making "brrrrmmm" noises and seeing how high you can stack the houses. You may be using all the components, but that's not the definition of playing that particular game.

If anything playing the game relates more to the rules than the components. You could probably play Blood Bowl with a board drawn on a big sheet of paper, with more bits of paper representing the minis and the rest of the components. Dice could be done by putting slips of paper in a dice bag and drawing out results. It wouldn't look pretty, but you could still technically play a game and follow all the rules of Blood Bowl.

[DinoTitanedition]

It's like saying you can play monopoly by throwing all the money in the air

I actually assume building a monopoly means to own as much money as possible and to get as much influence as possible. The car is a mere representation of the player, as is the cylinder or the dog. In Blood Bowl the teamminiatures are not, rather a part of the background and universe of that fictional world (Monopoly is based on a real life business situation on the other hand).

Dino, I disagree that you can play Blood Bowl without knowing the rules. Your daughter may be playing with Warhammer miniatures (or whatever they were), but she is most definitely not playing Warhammer.

If she plays Warhammer with "just some orcs" and "just some "Dwarves", it could be any setting, at this point it would be right. But if she knows and states "It`s the Redspear Goblins", then she in fact is playing Warhammer, as this fictional world defines itself throughout the character of it`s inhabitants, geography, heraldry, and so on. A ruleset is a way of playing Warhammer it is not Warhammer itself.

Simple example: When playing Age of Sigmar you still play Warhammer at a far, far progressed point of the Warhammer timeline. Though it is not a rank and file system anymore, it is still Warhammer.

Reading a novel about this world is Warhammer. Creating a scenario, or creating a system how to play the sceanario is Warhammer. And the same applies to Blood Bowl. Just because the rules are unusual or have very few boundaries, does not mean there is not a system or it is not Blood Bowl. In that case the player has simply decided to define it with it`s most core components - the characteristic beings of that particular fictional world.

But that is my opinion, just as you have yours. I can for example tell you, that noncharacteristic races are not Blood Bowl for me. You can as well play with a bunch of miniatures from the Lego kingdom. For me that is using a gaming system, but it`s not playing Blood Bowl, since it lacks the typical recognition value of the background.


By the way, to get back on topic....letting someone paint a team that optically lacks those values is also not really a Blood Bowl team to me.

[mikeyc222]

ok... by your logic then, if i form my hand into the shape of a gun, point my outstretched index finger towards a 40k model and say, "pew, pew, pew!" then i'm playing 40k...

"sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken." tyler durden as written by chuck palahniuk

holy COW this thread has gotten crazy off topic.

[DinoTitanedition]

ok... by your logic then, if i form my hand into the shape of a gun, point my outstretched index finger towards a 40k model and say, "pew, pew, pew!" then i'm playing 40k...

This way, no. With another miniature pointing at the the 40K model, yes. Or do you have any typical recognition values of the 40K universe and we don`t know if it yet?

I am not sure thou, if it would apply to larp events solely focused on 40K thou.

holy COW this thread has gotten crazy off topic.

I believe disagreement always does that to a certain point.

[mikeyc222]

cool, then i'll get a 40k mini, and show up to the next local 40k tournament, point the mini at other players' armies, shout, "pew, pew, pew!" all day and see how that works out for me.

[lunchmoney]

Request to mods: any chance this thread can be split? The original topic has been lost in the noise about whether one should paint or not!

[Stout Youngblood]

Request to mods: any chance this thread can be split? The original topic has been lost in the noise about whether one should paint or not!

Totally agree.

[VoodooMike]

I don`t recall saying, that people should be interested in all facettes instead of one - actually it is the other way around. If people don`t want to paint, that is okay. But the game itself, at least in it`s least iteration, is offerig all facettes. Therefore one can assume, that all parts of it are relevant for the game.

I don't agree with your logic. All possible facets are relevant to somebody but that does not make all of them necessary for everybody. You can play video games that offer modding support without learning to program mods... you can paint landscapes without ever painting a portrait. You can race cars without ever building a car yourself. It comes down to which aspects of an activity happen to appeal to you and whether you can satisfy the basic requirements to engage in that activity.

Even under GW the "rule" about minis was that they had to be painted GW minis... but I don't recall there ever being a requirement that they have been painted by your own hand. At this point I don't think any of those minis requirements realistically exist in tabletop/tournament play.

I would`ve agreed on this, until I read that:

This is the sort'v thing where using NAMES on quotes helps, since you quoted someone else's post in the middle of replying to mine, but don't differentiate between the sources. Instead of just putting |quote| at the start of a quote, put |quote="name"| to make sourcing easy.

If not liking it, then why try it for twenty years? This indicates, that there is a sympathy for that field. Or how else should an illogic behaiviour like that be explained then? A lust for turture? I`m not judging...I`m doing all kinds of contact sports and there might be a certain enjoyment for destruction, towards and against one.

You can like the idea of something but continually fail to enjoy the thing itself. There are a lot of things in my own life that fit the bill... drawing, for example.. I'd love to be good at it, but I'm just not. Also intense exercise... I'd love to have huge muscles and six-pack abs, but every time I start out on a program of extreme training I realise that I HATE physical activity and would probably be just as happy being 500lbs living off a nutrient IV drip if that were a serious option.

Agreed......thou....it can`t be? My daughter had some old Warhammer minis in her hands and making sound like "CATCHING!" simulating swords hitting each other. I would say that is playing and don`t see why it could not be done with Blood Bowl as well. Of course it is not what people know Blood Bowl to be, but in general it is quite well possible. We all played like that at one point. But if that is incorrect...

She's not playing Warhammer, she's playing with Warhammer bits... but what she's playing is an entirely different game. A game is only the same game if you're using the same rules everyone else who plays that game is using - if you change the rules at best you're playing a variant, assuming the basic rules are the same or very similar. If even those are different you have a different game. "Sorry" and "Snakes and Ladders" use the same pieces but are not the same game.

....then this is too. It is Blood Bowl after all. A persiflage of the sport american football and the inhabitants of the classic Warhammer universe. You can of course use the ruleset, but you are actually not playing Blood Bowl at that moment.

I'm pretty sure there's nothing in the rules that says you can't use plastic smurfs as playing pieces for a game of Blood Bowl, so yes, you'd still be playing Blood Bowl if you used them.

Request to mods: any chance this thread can be split? The original topic has been lost in the noise about whether one should paint or not!

While I'm all for that, especially because it'll rightfully put Darkson to work and that slacker really needs to be motivated by the whip and thumbscrews.. I'm not sure the original topic has anywhere to go anymore. Laughingferret has demonstrated that he is untrustworthy and should be avoided.