GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

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MattDakka
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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by MattDakka »

sann0638 wrote: Pitch invasion is appalling, and I have lost tournaments because of it, but it is only a 1 in 36, and I have lost more games to a double skulls or snake eyes than a pitch invasion.
So because you lose more often for double skull blocks and failed GFI then Pitch Invasion is not a huge issue because it's unlikely?
On the contrary, I think that losing for double skull blocks and GFIs is a good reason to have LESS randomness in the Kick Off table and in BB.
Less randomness, more coach's skill.
koadah wrote: The real solution is to not take it all so seriously.
It's hard to improve yourself if you don't take what you do seriously.

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dode74
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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by dode74 »

MattDakka wrote:Less randomness, more coach's skill.
Chess it is, then.

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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by MattDakka »

dode74 wrote:
MattDakka wrote:Less randomness, more coach's skill.
Chess it is, then.
After centuries Chess has nothing new to offer.
Lot of books have been written on Chess and a big part of the game is learning openings, mid game and end game and recognizing your opponent's pattern of moves.
More memory than imagination and room to invent plays.
What I'd like is a less random BB, not a deterministic BB.

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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by Regash »

And I want a more random, casual chess.
Can't have it either...
:wink:

Both games have been designed the way they are.
To be honest, if BB was less random, I'd quit.
It's what makes the game fun to me.

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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by koadah »

MattDakka wrote:
dode74 wrote:
MattDakka wrote:Less randomness, more coach's skill.
Chess it is, then.
After centuries Chess has nothing new to offer.
Lot of books have been written on Chess and a big part of the game is learning openings, mid game and end game and recognizing your opponent's pattern of moves.
More memory than imagination and room to invent plays.
What I'd like is a less random BB, not a deterministic BB.
Are you a grand master?

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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by rolo »

Generally speaking, Blood Bowl is a fun, exciting game. Part of the excitement is that you never really know how most turns will turn out - even if you correctly guess exactly what your opponent is going to do, you can't fully predict the game situation. You know a pass is coming, will it succeed? Can your opponent pull off that one-turner? When you take that one die block on the ball carrier, so many things can happen ... maybe you take him down, the ball scatters well, you recover, score on defense, and win. Maybe your own player knocks himself over and breaks his jaw. Maybe nothing of real consequence happens.

But if you take that one die block, and your player falls over and kills himself, you can't really complain. Well, you can, people do, but that's Blood Bowl. Your opponent was good enough that the best you could get was a one die block, you know those are risky. Everyone who has played Blood Bowl for a while has been in that situation, on both sides. Sometimes you win 'em, sometimes you lose 'em. The game is about risk management and setting yourself up so that your players have a chance to succeed. Often taking that one die block on a ball carrier is the correct move. But just like real life, doing the correct move doesn't always succeed. If a game comes down to a one die block at the end, it's probably been an exciting game.

But sometimes games come down to things which nobody planned - Sweltering Heat leaving one team crippled. Or a pitch invasion destroying one team's defense (or offense!). There's no way to plan ahead for that kind of thing, it's pure luck. Does anyone honestly think that Blood Bowl games are improved when this happens?

Maybe there are people out there who love that. I don't. That doesn't mean that I hate randomness, so please stop telling me that I want to play Chess instead. I play Blood Bowl by choice. I don't mind losing a close game because my opponent passed a few dice rolls and I did not. (Okay I might whine at the time, but these things happen). I don't mind losing to a superior opponent - that's how I get better. But I really hate it when I lose to, say, half my defense getting stunned by a Pitch Invasion. Sure, it doesn't happen often. Sure, it's not entirely rational on my part that this should piss me off more than, say, quad skulls on turn 16 to free my ball carrier. Sure, I doubt that the rule will change any year soon.

But I don't think I'm alone in saying that a few completely random things (such as Pitch Invasion and Sweltering Heat) can be disproportionately game-affecting compared to other weather and kickoff results, that they can sometimes ruin an entire game, and that no amount of planning or skill can mitigate it. And that nerfing those two specific things would be a net improvement in the game. What if Sweltering Heat flat-out removed one random player on the field at the end of every drive? What if Pitch Invsaions were capped at 1 + FAME opposing players stunned? There's still randomness, you still have to worry rolling that kickoff event, but there's less potential for turning an otherwise exciting and competitive game into a one-sided yawner. Which is how I was using the term "game-breaking" earlier, and I think that's what Matt meant as well.

Anyway, enough whining about rules which aren't going to change anyway. Back to painting my new World Cup Necro team ;)

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MattDakka
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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by MattDakka »

koadah wrote: Are you a grand master?
No need to be a grand master to know that Chess is a deterministic game and that you have to memorize patterns of moves to play it.


rolo expressed well what I think and tried to explain.

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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by plasmoid »

I don't agree with everything that Matt says.
But frankly I think that telling him to play chess instead is a poor response.
It's a 'f*ck off' that could be flung at everyone who has ever had a problem with a rule.
Which I think is most (if not all) of us.

Want IGMEOY back? Just play the rules.
Think Wardancers are too much? Just play the rules.
Think the game would be better with 2 Squares of endzone? Just play the rules.
Think passing isn't worth it? Just play the rules.

Cheers
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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by odinsgrandson »

MattDakka wrote:
dode74 wrote:
MattDakka wrote:Less randomness, more coach's skill.
Chess it is, then.
After centuries Chess has nothing new to offer.
Lot of books have been written on Chess and a big part of the game is learning openings, mid game and end game and recognizing your opponent's pattern of moves.
More memory than imagination and room to invent plays.
What I'd like is a less random BB, not a deterministic BB.
This is, of course, a clearly oversimplified view of Chess -you can memorize openings, but once you get to the mid game you're needing to figure out what you're doing by yourself, and memorizing end games is really just helpful if you're able to get enough of an advantage and need have a rough time closing. And even openings follow principles- if you do nothing but look at the board each turn and decide what the best next move is, you're on the road to victory.

I guess if someone is asking, I'm a decent player, but I haven't played in any USCF sanctioned tournaments in quite a while.

-What Blood Bowl offers that I haven't seen much in other games is the need to react to bad situations. The game tends to flow well for you to a point, then there's a dropped ball, double skull block or tripping player in a key spot and you need to figure out what to do from there.

In this case, you also want to look at the board in front of you and pick the best possible moves.

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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by Regash »

What got me to tell people to play chess instead is the use of the term "game-breaking".

If a game is broken because of the rules, I'm not gonna play it. Period.
It's broken, so it can't be fun.
If it completely p*sses you off if you lose because of something happening that you have no control over?
Life is like that all the time.
So why bother with Blood Bowl at all? It's broken!

And really, guys, if you're just playing for the victory, you're doing it wrong, in my opinion.

Look at NTBB, look at Matt, look at all the house rules.
Everyone seems to have an idea on how to improve Blood Bowl.
I just don't get it, that's all.

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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by DinoTitanedition »

The way I experienced the game, more randomness is more fun. All this crampy sticking to rules is kind of just that....crampy. In a league I play we give away one of the special play cards for free for both teams, the team with the lesser tv chooses the deck. But, o gosh! It seems that no one dares to go past the everlasting calculation of percentages....it might be fun!

Seriously, don`t think that the members of the forum or for example the NAF is the majority of the fans. Especially since the videogames have been released, there is a lot of players not being member of any of the "older" organizations, simply due to the fact, that there is enough people playing the game a little more loose.

And to make it clear, this is no offense, just be aware, that there is plenty of people which have a different opinion on how this game should be played. It`s not always the loudest voice shouting what is true.

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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by dode74 »

plasmoid wrote:I don't agree with everything that Matt says.
But frankly I think that telling him to play chess instead is a poor response.
It's a 'f*ck off' that could be flung at everyone who has ever had a problem with a rule.
Don't twist my words - I've never said any such thing. Matt said, quite clearly, he wanted "Less randomness, more coach's skill" and basically claimed the bits he sees as too much randomness are "gamebreaking", which is nonsense. I've been saying the whole time that the amount of one compared to the other is a matter of taste, but the end of the slippery slope of his argument is, ultimately, chess, just as his call for "better balance" ultimately results in 6338 for everyone. We all want tweaks but if you put 2 BB players in a room they'll find at least 4 rules they disagree on. With no (current) rules custodian there's no variation other than house rules, which you are more than welcome to.

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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by Darkson »

MattDakka wrote:No need to be a grand master to know that Chess is a deterministic game and that you have to memorize patterns of moves to play it.
Top players say being good at BB is about memorising patterns.
And they still win even with all the randomness in the game.

Maybe you're just not as good as you think you are?

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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by MattDakka »

Regash wrote:What got me to tell people to play chess instead is the use of the term "game-breaking".
Game-breaking in the sense that some events can ruin a match, not that the whole game is horribly broken, otherwise we could not see coaches with high win rate.
Regash wrote:What got me to tell people to play chess instead is the use of the term "game-breaking".

If a game is broken because of the rules, I'm not gonna play it. Period.
It's broken, so it can't be fun.
If it completely p*sses you off if you lose because of something happening that you have no control over?
Life is like that all the time.
So why bother with Blood Bowl at all? It's broken!
Because it's an unbalanced game but still worth to be played because most of times the best coach will win the match.
Regash wrote: And really, guys, if you're just playing for the victory, you're doing it wrong, in my opinion.
In my opinion the most spectacular matches are those played by 2 coaches with high win rate, while watching 2 clueless noobs playing a game (or even a very good coach playing vs a noob coach) is not as interesting.
Regash wrote: Look at NTBB, look at Matt, look at all the house rules.
Everyone seems to have an idea on how to improve Blood Bowl.
I just don't get it, that's all.
Well nobody will force you to play with house rules, so fret not.
I don't get how somebody can tolerate to play a game seeing flaws without thinking about ways to fix them.
Maybe because you play for fun, so you are not very interested in a more balanced game.
Darkson wrote:
MattDakka wrote:No need to be a grand master to know that Chess is a deterministic game and that you have to memorize patterns of moves to play it.
Top players say being good at BB is about memorising patterns.
And they still win even with all the randomness in the game.

Maybe you're just not as good as you think you are?
Yes, BB is about memorizing patterns as well, but not only that.
You must be ready to change your plan for the turn (or turns) on the fly because the dice can mess it.

I don't understand why my personal coach skill should be relevant for a well known thing, i.e. that BB is a mix of positioning, tactic, moves AND a random element that Chess lacks.
Anyway, if you ever decide to play on FUMBBL I will be glad to play with you, so you can test directly my goodness.
After all BB is more about playing than talking.

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Olaf the Stout
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Re: GW bringing back Specialist Games?!?

Post by Olaf the Stout »

Darkson wrote:
MattDakka wrote:No need to be a grand master to know that Chess is a deterministic game and that you have to memorize patterns of moves to play it.
Top players say being good at BB is about memorising patterns.
And they still win even with all the randomness in the game.

Maybe you're just not as good as you think you are?
That's the first time I've even heard someone say BB is about memorising patterns, so I'm clearly not a top player! :D

On a slightly more serious note, do you know what is meant by that Darkson? I've heard a number of top players state that being good at BB is about minimising risk and the reducing the number of times you need to roll dice.

That makes sense to me, since the more dice you roll, the more likely you are to fail an action and end your turn. However, I'm not sure what's meant by memorising patterns.

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