BB2 Full listof changes to crp

[plasmoid]

The main difference between Martin's bank and the real bank is that you get to transfer to treasury in pre match with Martin's version.

Fully acknowledged.
Which is what we've all been doing for the past 5 years anyway (with the Petty Cash rule).
But the final result (induced cash / real cash) remains the same.

Cheers
Martin

[dode74]

Vanguard - None of that makes it right

Martin - the final result is not the same. The final result is that the players no longer have to try to work out what they will need in terms of treasury cash BEFORE they know who they will play. It removes a layer of strategy and risk.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Also - like it or not - TV based MM is a big thing.
In Galak Bank a 1300 TV team with 150k in the bank and 450k in treasury would get matched as TV 1750.
What about under Plasmoid Bank? 1300?

[GalakStarscraper]

Also - like it or not - TV based MM is a big thing.
In Galak Bank a 1300 TV team with 150k in the bank and 450k in treasury would get matched as TV 1750.
What about under Plasmoid Bank? 1300?

I think you hit upon one of the other big items Jimmy. That would be a TV 1300 team under this version of the Bank rules instead of a TV 1750 team as per the original rules.

While TV matching is not as big a deal in tabletop ... this is an online league putting the rules into place and so it definitely was more important.

[odinsgrandson]

Do all of the changes fit with Plasmoid's rules changes?

[dode74]

Do all of the changes fit with Plasmoid's rules changes?

No. The orc change does not. If they intended the bank change to fit then they've screwed it up. Then there is ageing and the marketplace along with the stadium enhancements.

[plasmoid]

Hi Dode,

Martin - the final result is not the same. The final result is that the players no longer have to try to work out what they will need in terms of treasury cash BEFORE they know who they will play. It removes a layer of strategy and risk.

The Cash generated when the teams are compared is the same.
Also, having played with the PBBL version of the Bank, I can not wrap my head around how you can call it "a layer of strategy" to 'choose' blindfolded (which is what you're doing when you have zero idea whether you'll be facing Chaos or High Elfs). That's not strategy. That's totally random.

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi Jimmy (and Galak and everyone else reading along),
admittedly that is a difference between the 2, which I had not considered when I rewrote the Bank rule for my (TT) site a few years ago. But as I will try to explain, it is more of a difference with the mechanics than with the end result.

I should start by noting that it is a super marginal situation we're talking about. Having played with Bank rules both in PBBL and after CRP, I have never seen anyone hold more than a smattering of cash above the cap, because of the penalty. That is the very intent of the Bank rule. For someone to be lugging around the kind of cash that you describe Jimmy, they would have had to suffer a massive Team Value penalty over a large number of games!

So it is a difference which is unlikely to ever be relevant, but a difference all the same.

Now let's look at the situation:
TV 1300 team + 600K Cash. how is it matched?

With PBBL Bank, your TV 1300 will be matched against a true TV 1750 team.
*You can then either suck it up - playing 1300 vs 1750 (Yikes)
*Or make up the difference by inducing with cash - making the teams (largely) equal.

Under PlasBank, your TV1300 team will be matched against a TV1300 team.
However, in the Petty Cash phase you will be obliged to move 450K into Petty Cash - putting your TV at (again) 1750.
And then team values are compared. This means that your opponent will get inducements for the difference!
*You can then either suck it up - playing 1300 vs 1750 (1300 + 450 induced). Yikes.
*Or make up the difference by inducing with cash - meaning both teams are 1300 + 450 induced - making the teams (largely) equal.

So, to summarize:
With both rules you either
a) dip into your cash and face an opponent who matches your TV1750 team.
b) don't use your cash (which is how you presumably acquired this massive fortune) and face a TV 1750 opponent with your TV 1300 team.

Cheers
Martin

[Regash]

Under PlasBank, your TV1300 team will be matched against a TV1300 team.
However, in the Petty Cash phase you will be obliged to move 450K into Petty Cash - putting your TV at (again) 1750.
And then team values are compared. This means that your opponent will get inducements for the difference!

Maybe I'm a little dumb but I don't get this.
TV 1300 VS TV 1750 = TV 1300 gets 450K inducements to even the odds, right?
If the TV 1300 moves 450K from it's own cash to Petty Cash, it then is TV 1750 (1300 + 450 = 1750) VS TV 1750!
Noone gets any inducements, right?

Why are you saying the opponent, the TV 1750 is getting inducements?
What difference?

I'm confused...

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Inducements are meant to be not as strong as TV by design. So you would clearly rather face 1300+450 team.
Plasmoid please stop saying they are the same when they are clearly not the same.

Most of the problems come from the Cyanide implementation of (to be fair to them) what was a very unclear rule.
I mean Galak is the first person to ever write the rule out in a legible format.

This doesn't excuse the fact that your mish mash of the two rules is worse than either, totally unnecessary and you have been, and are continuing to be, dishonest about the whole thing.

[plasmoid]

Hi Jimmy,
I think I wrote a very clear and not dishonest example.
I didn't expect you to want to understand Or to admit it if you did.

I said that I had not considered the issue.
I said that it was an issue that will never ever come up - but I guess that doesn't matter to you at all.
Finally I showed that the TV1300 team will be matched against another TV 1300 team which recieves 450K worth of inducements for free.

This is admittedly usually - but let's not forget the cherry picking factor - not as harsh as running into a straight TV 1750, so in this pretend situation, my rule will be slightly milder on the team with the Cash than the real Bank rule would have been.
I admitted that it was a difference.
Is it a bad one?
Is it one that anyone will ever experience?

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi Regash,
your quote doesn't line up with the example, so I'm not sure what you're asking.

But under PBBL Bank rules, the team described would be listed at TV1750 and be matched against a TV1750 team. Whether they then burn Cash to even the gap or play as a massive underdog us up to them.

With Plasbank, the team described gets matched against a TV1300 team. However, the petty Cash rules then forces the team to convert Cash into petty Cash. This bumps their TV (for the game) to 1750 - whether they actually induce anything or not. Their opponent (at TV1300) are now compared to a TV1750 team, so they also get 450K worth of inducements. Only for them, it doesn't cost them any real Cash.
All of that follows the existing Petty Cash rules precisely.

Clearer?
If not, please elaborate

Cheers
Martin

[Jimmy Fantastic]

I said that I had not considered the issue.
I said that it was an issue that will never ever come up - but I guess that doesn't matter to you at all.

Wait... what? You pushed your rule to cyanide knowing they would use it primarily for TV based MM ... and didn't consider this?
Now you claim it will never ever come up... see what I mean about being dishonest?

I admitted that it was a difference.
Is it a bad one?
Is it one that anyone will ever experience?

After I told you.
I don't know. Guess what, you are replacing a rule that has worked for years with an untested one. Even if you had pushed the BBRC Bank to Cyanide instead of your own you would still have replaced a rule that has worked for years in online TV based MM with one that Galak feels would be better after some TT testing.
Yes. A LOT of games take place in online tv based mm and anything that can happen will happen and any rule that can be exploited, bent or broken will be.

[plasmoid]

Hi again Jimmy,

Wait... what? You pushed your rule to cyanide knowing they would use it primarily for TV based MM ... and didn't consider this?

No Jimmy, I didn't push this to Cyanide. I put it on my website a few years ago, in order to easier explain what the Bank rule does to everyone used to the Petty Cash rules (which were instated with the CRP).
And no, as stated, I didn't consider it.

Now you claim it will never ever come up... see what I mean about being dishonest?

No Jimmy, I don't see. All I see is a pattern in your posting style.
I don't now claim that it will never ever come up.
I just claim that it will never ever come up.
Which is why I didn't consider it.
I gave you a description of why it will not happen. Do you disagree with that description?
Do you disagree that teams in a TV-matched open League will not endure game after game of getting hammered by increasingly harsh opposing freebies, while they build up a treasury.
If anything, your own resistance to the very Bank concept is that coaches will actually be forced to stay under the cap and not have a huge treasury.

After I told you.

Yes. Because I hadn't considered it. Any chance you could respond tothe questions I then asked? Or are you happy to just get your rage on?

But as you say on your blog:

Well guess what? Petty cash has been playtested in literally millions of games and works fine.

I'm glad you say that it works fine and has done so for a long time, because that's why I used it as a framework for my Bank rewrite.

But hey, we should totally use the only rule that the creator of Bloodbowl felt was bad enough to veto

If you had been around, or had bothered to check, you'd now that what caused the veto was that he found 2 treasuries to be too complex. So I'm completely with you, when you say that we shouldn't bring in 2 treasuries. After all, JJ vetoed it.

What I brought into the framework of a tried and tested rule sanctioned by JJ himself was the idea of a cap, which he didn't object openly to. And I didn't push either of the Bank rules to Cyanide. As I believe you have already been told.

Cheers
Martin

[straume]

Hi Jimmy.

I am used to Petty Cash rule. Plasmoid suggests forced use of Petty Cash above the bank limit. How is this horrible? It seems simple enough?

Also: the simplest implemention to avoid hoarding of cash is to limit treasury to 150k, no petty cash or money spent on inducements allowed. But I guess that is for CRP++