Bretonnian roster... What's the deal?

[garion]

Yep. And they made it optional for commishs to choose or not. That is what they should do for the rest of the changes.

+ 1

Yup that would be wise.

[Hackenslash]

I've been playing Blood Bowl for a long time and I'm more excited about it than ever. Cyanide's games, regardless of bugs or whatever, have given the game a much needed infusion of new blood; something that was desperately needed after such a long period of stagnation.

More development, whether it be new rosters, roster changes, or changes to more core mechanics, is necessary to make the game more enjoyable for veterans and more exciting for everyone. From a tabletop perspective, few people want to invest their time and money in a dead game. Seeing some form of support is a very good thing.

One last note: it is unreasonable to expect people to always agree. It is not unreasonable to expect people to be civil. They way people have been speaking to each other in this thread (and a few others) does the community an incredible disservice. It is unwelcoming. It is intimidating. It is destructive. It is a poor first impression for newcomers and disuades people from participating in discussions. I know its done that to me.

[harvestmouse]

@Sundevil: Blitzers do blitz, Blockers do block and Runners do run....that's their job and that's why they're called their position. In professional sports you don't hire a goal keeper or a quarter back and make him something different because it's boring.

harvestmouse = This was the post I was referring in regards to using the term 'boring'. If I misunderstood (and it would be neither the first time nor the last) then I apologize. While we disagree on the Bret roster and what it might mean for roster design in the future, I have greatly enjoyed discussing it with you. I also want to thank you for your mature and polite posts. I hope the thread will continue in that vein.

Ahhhhhh no, actually the other way around. I think that new rosters are trying to hard to be interesting, because the older rosters are thought to be boring.

In my mind, there isn't such a thing as a boring roster. I find all linemen rosters interesting, as you have many paths to develop them. For me, I love the 2 tone rosters, they're some of the most interesting; Lizards, Vamps and big guy/stunty mixes.

So my analogy there was "A blitzer is a blitzer. IF you find a blitzer boring and are going to change the stats wildly from a normal blitzer, then don't call him a blitzer."

Nothing to do with finding any of the 3 new rosters Apes, Khorne or Brets boring, I do not. I just think you have to be careful about what skills you do add, fearing they'll be boring otherwise.

Apes it's not such a big deal, as they're new creatures and they don't have traditional positionals. So yeah you can do what you want really.

Khorne also had some freedom, I think the cookie cutter frenzy route was a good idea. The positionals are a bit messy skillwise and have been overdescribed a bit. The stats are the problem here though.

Bretonnians however are humans and are using traditional postionals. That for me is a problem.

Anyway to conclude, I don't think any of these rosters are boring.

[plasmoid]

Hi Harvestmouse,
just to set the record straight: The change from S to P didn't happen to make things interesting. They happened due to balance issues.
Edit: That said, have you ever created a team and had someone say - it looks too much like x team. Your team is unwarranted/pointless? It's very common remark.

I had honestly never thought that the Blitzer name would be a problem. And I do understand your position, even if it isn't that big a deal the way I see things.
I'm also still quite annoyed that they changed the Yeoman to a Blocker. I disagree that Blockers have to be ST4 (because of the 2 dwarf blockers who are actually in the rules - no matter how they got there) - but that is all beside the point. The Yeoman is only a marginally decent fit for a blocker. Not only that - but the name makes the roster hard to understand. Just check out CKNoors intro video, where he talks about it for 30 minutes.

I can't really say I wish that I had kept S access on the Blitzer, because I do think that it makes the player more of a hero/quarterback then a brute. But I can't really say that I enjoy pissing people off either.

In retrospect, perhaps this would have been better naming:
BRETONNIAN TEAM
0-4 Runners 7338 Block, Dauntless, Catch GP
0-4 Yeomen/Squires 6338 Wrestle GS
0-12 Linemen 6327 Fend G

I like the Runner, because he is the abvious candidate on the team for just about anything worth doing. He starts as quite the basher (both block and dauntless) but is also quite fast, can catch, intercept, and can develop passing.
I like that he lets you build a dump-off based team if you want.
And I also like that if you ever want anyone to try out some of the less used skills, then his statline complements a lot of them (and he has nothing better to get). (I.e. Catch to go with pass block, MA7 ST3 to go with shadowing, etc...)

I like the Yeoman, because he is a very modest position player. A human lineman with a decent skill and S-access.
I love wrestle on him because it makes him good at blocking, without making him a viable ball carrier. I want the Runners to do all the glorious stuff. I also like it because it actually helps the Runners do their magic. And because it too encourages alternative builds, seeing as how it is not a perfect fit for the powerskills Guard and PiOn.
I also like the meta-gaming qualities of wrestle on tournaments, where blodge is so awesome.

I like the lineman because he is exactly as useless as he should be on a Bretonnian team.
I also like that he is not easy to get the ball on, meaning that he will be hard to skill (even with MVP + comp) keepig him at the bottom of the team.
And I like the metagaming qualities of a cheap, AV7, Fend player, which is a bit of a nuisance to CPOMBers.

Cheers
Martin

(PS - a runner to me is a primary ball mover which does not have the key characteristics of either a Catcher or a Thrower. Often with P access. A Runner with Block already exists).

[plasmoid]

Hi Garion,

I’m not clear what you are saying here, are you saying that Blitzer is not a powerful player (not piece… player), but is still the star of the team?

What I was trying to say that it is one thing to be a powerful piece in a board game.
It is another thing to be a star in the fluff/role-playing sense of the Word.

For exmple, the old Dirty Player Lineman (the +2/+2 kind) with Pro (from when armor/injury could be rerolled), was an absolute monster when it came to impact in the game. I would never from a fluff point of view consider such a player the star of the team.

To me, the player who Blocks & blitzes - even players stronger than himself - catches the ball, gets the interception, scores, and could pass like a quarterback, is a hero. The star that makes the ladies swoon. Even if he doesn't kill anyone.
Or to put it in gaming terms:
On my current team, the blitzers have 51 SPPs (non-MVP) between them.
The yeomen have 19.
The Linemen have 4. (And there are more of them)

The blitzers have more touchdowns, more casulties and more interceptions. And that's even though one of the original Blitzers died and his SPPs aren't included.
The Blitzers are the stars of the team.
Even if other team's stars are better.

Cheers
Martin

PS - the fact that I play pbem and pbem is slow does not really indicate how experienced/inexperienced I am.

[MattDakka]

(I.e. Catch to go with pass block, MA7 ST3 to go with shadowing, etc...)

Come on, Pass Block and Shadowing are terrible skills... how can you really think somebody could do such horrible builds?
The team is sub-par, taking such bad skills wouldn't improve it.

[harvestmouse]

Hi Harvestmouse,
just to set the record straight: The change from S to P didn't happen to make things interesting. They happened due to balance issues.
Edit: That said, have you ever created a team and had someone say - it looks too much like x team. Your team is unwarranted/pointless? It's very common remark.

Yes, definitely. However I have a different outlook on the subject. Do you know how the Warhammer army lists use to work? With alternative army lists at the back that could be used if the tournament organizer so wished. I'd like to see BB do the same. Have a standard say....Dwarf list, and then half a dozen or so alternatives that could be added if the organizer/commissioner wanted.

The thing is, if you were worried that it'd be too much like another list, humans probably wasn't the right race to choose. I'm not sure when we got into this "every new roster has to be totally different, mindset or why it is necessary to think like that."

I had honestly never thought that the Blitzer name would be a problem.

I don't think there is a problem, he's clearly a blitzer. He's almost the perfect blitzer in fact! Knight/Blitzer Stormvermin/Blitzer whichever, I prefer the former because it adds colour, but blitzer is more uniform. There's just one simple problem with him, his skill access. Just that, and only that. Other than that, I like him. Dauntless was a great choice, catch is a bit weird (yes I know your theme) but fine for me. Blitzers have been used as quasi catchers in teams that don't have them before.

Did you ever think about giving the Yeoman just G access and putting the S access back on the blitzers? You could even, say give the Yeoman a bit more armour and a bit less speed. I wouldn't want to do that, but it makes them more niche. However I'm sure you'd want to develop a Yeoman into a sacker with tackle/strip, so less speed cripples him a bit.

However you get a nice theme of the peasants backing off, whilst the slower Yeoman hold the line with more discipline.

[harvestmouse]

(I.e. Catch to go with pass block, MA7 ST3 to go with shadowing, etc...)

Come on, Pass Block and Shadowing are terrible skills... how can you really think somebody could do such horrible builds?
The team is sub-par, taking such bad skills wouldn't improve it.

Sounds like Babs FUMBBL team....

[garion]

Please stop calling them "pieces" they are "players"

That is all !

[dode74]

Please stop calling them "pieces" they are "players"

That is all !

People can sometimes confuse the "players" terminology with the actual person playing the game, hence pieces as a carryover from chess, I think. Personally I think the "coach" (you or I) moves the "players" (the individuals on the board) who are in a "team" (the particular grouping of those players) who are of a particular "race" (e.g. orcs), but context is everything

[garion]

The rule book is very very clear that the human in charge of a team is callled coach and the players are called player.

This is not chess. There are no pieces.... well... Not until you have played Bill brasky anyway , after that you have lots of pieces... Of players.... All over the turf.

[harvestmouse]

If we're the coach, who's the guy in charge of the team....like the necromancer guy that raises the pieces out of the ground?

[Regash]

If you're going with the rule book, he's right.

The Coaches: Don’t look in the box for these, because there aren’t any – you and your opponent are the coaches! To avoid confusion with the teams’ players (the plastic playing pieces), we will refer to you and the other real-life players as the teams’ coaches. All references to players are to the Blood Bowl pieces.

Since we very seldomly reference the necromancer, maybe we should refer to him as that: a necromancer?

[garion]

Incorrect... goodness me... LRB4 hasn't been away that long and everyone forgets everything

If you are in charge of an Undead team, the coach is the necromancer, in other words YOU are the necromancer.

Remember in lrb4 you always got +1 to coach rolls for yourself on the kick off table stuff (plus any extra coaches you purchase), plus if in charge of an Undead team you could resurrect players. However if you argued a ref call and got sent off for arguing with the ref then you would lose the +1 coach rolls and in the case of Undead you would lose the ability to resurrect killed opposing players.

God I miss lrb4 so much, was so much more fun.....

[Regash]

LRB4 is way back in the past.
My quote is from the CRP!