Bretonnian roster... What's the deal?

[harvestmouse]

So in the Beta they've used Plasmoid's roster and renamed the Yeoman, Blockers. So now we not only have a Blitzer with P access, but a 6 3 3 8 Blocker.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_CHcBn_d0U

I don't like the original roster, and I really can't agree or be inspired by Cyanide's roster design policies.

[Regash]

The team creation looks very f*cked up.
The more I see from Blood Bowl II, the more I'm glad I didn't preorder.

But why is he building a Bretonnian team?
Thought the beta had only 4 teams in it?!?

[harvestmouse]

He has a special version, I guess because he does the youtube channel.

I don't know what I'd do with that roster tbh.....

Make the linos more standard of course. Give the blitzers the S access. Change the blockers to runners give them P access......then work a way to make them ma7 too I guess...

At least that way things start to make sense. Dauntless on the blitzers is fine for me, that's Bretts niche. Catch it's a bit weird and old hat, but yeah...ok it's a human skill. Swap the Wrestle on the blockers (now runners to sure hands and give them ma7). With the access change (ok I know access isn't added to the price) MA increase, inferior sure hands to wrestle it all makes a bit of sense.

I always felt that wrestle and fend were tacked to the side of this roster, due to them being new skills and not utilized in any starting roster. I don't think this is the one though.

[MattDakka]

Dwarfs as well if you like, blitzers are clearly based off of Iron Breakers.

If they were Iron Breakers then according to the fluff they should have a superior armour, like AV 10, but they have just AV 9, moreover, since Dwarfs are few and the task of Iron Breakers is to defend the lower, most dangerous levels of Dwarf strongholds I find a bit hard to see them on a BB pitch, due to their elite status and important duty.

[harvestmouse]

Well yes and no. Earlier editions of Dwarfs the Mithril armour (before it was renamed Gomril) gave the same save throw, but didn't compromise movement. So, the extra armour could be the lighter armour but the same protection, explaining the extra MA.

[MattDakka]

Well yes and no. Earlier editions of Dwarfs the Mithril armour (before it was renamed Gomril) gave the same save throw, but didn't compromise movement. So, the extra armour could be the lighter armour but the same protection, explaining the extra MA.

Their heavy armours were enhanced by Rune of Stone in Dwarfs Army Book 4th edition by the way (and then the Rune of Stone disappeared from Iron Breakers' armours in the following editions).
Extra MA ok, but they have just AV 9, too low for the most armoured Dwarf warriors in WHFB lore in my opinion.
It could be better to call Blitzers Longbeards (same stats as the Dwarf Blitzers) and change the current Longbeards to Clansdwarfs (basic Dwarfs warriors were called Clansmen back in 4th edition but I never like the "men" when referring to dwarfs).
Another idea could be using Thanes for Dwarf Blitzers, this is quite fluffy as well.

[Darkson]

Well yes and no. Earlier editions of Dwarfs the Mithril armour (before it was renamed Gomril) gave the same save throw, but didn't compromise movement. So, the extra armour could be the lighter armour but the same protection, explaining the extra MA.

Wasn't Mithril armour for Elves and Gromil for Dwarfs? I know both are in Mordheim, and they have different effects.

[Regash]

A quick scan of the (old) Mortheim rules I have on my hard drive spoke of Gromril armour and weapons.
Gromril armour gave a better save throw.

A search for Mithril came up with no results.

Anyway, what's this got to do with the Bretonnian roster?

[harvestmouse]

Well yes and no. Earlier editions of Dwarfs the Mithril armour (before it was renamed Gomril) gave the same save throw, but didn't compromise movement. So, the extra armour could be the lighter armour but the same protection, explaining the extra MA.

Wasn't Mithril armour for Elves and Gromil for Dwarfs? I know both are in Mordheim, and they have different effects.

No. Both Elves (to some extent) and Dwarfs (mainly) had Mithril armour (up to the end of 3rd edition warhammer(same time as 2nd edition BB); like LoTR. However from 4th edition onwards a few things changed.

1. Mithril went......I'm not sure why. Maybe an IP infringement or maybe GW wanted to specialize things or maybe something to do with reason number 2.

Mithril was replaced by Gromril armour for Dwarfs and a few different things for Elves. Elves did get Ithilmar barding, which was described the same as Mithril. I'm not sure if it came as armour though or just barding.

2. The rules changed and became simplified. Namely movement penalties. However this (IIRC) put Dwarfs at a bit of a disadvantage due to them receiving less penalties than other races. So they got their marching rule.

Anyway, back in 3rd edition what Mithril did was give the same save as heavy or light armour (you could buy either), but without the movement encumbrance.

From the 3rd ed rule book

"Mithril is a fabulously hard metal mined by the Dwarfs from beneath the mountainous areas surrounding the great smith-city of Zhufbar. Although the metal is itself not magical, it is so hard that magic is required (Dwarfs had magic not runes back then) to work it. Such magic is reputedly known only by the Master Artificers of the Dwarfs. Needles to say, mithril is therefore correspondingly rare and valuable................However the metal is so light they there is no encumbrance, and consequently no movement penalty.........................To reflect the fact that mithril is associated more commonly with Dwarfs that other creatures, a Dwarf may wear mithril for only +25 points (this being half, however in the army book, High Elves had good access to Mithril as well)."

This was then replaced by Gromril for the next edition. Which due to the rule changes on movement penalties was simplified to just +1 extra save.

In Blood Bowl, the fact that, Slayers get extra movement and less AV than Blockers/Longbeards, suggest that Dwarfs do suffer from Movement penalties in Blood Bowl. So the Blitzers that have the same armour value as Blockers/Longbeards, but the same movement of Slayers could be argued that they are indeed wearing Mithril (now Gromril).

From the Elven book:

Ithilmar is extremely light, but very resilient. Barding made from ithilmar gives the same protection as heavy steel, but without slowing down the steed that wears it."

So I guess they inherited mithril due to A: Both Dwarfs and Elves being part of the process in LoTR. B: Rule changes meaning the rules were not useful to Dwarfs anymore.

However Warhammer FRP states

"Mithril is the most common form of Gromril. It is refined by smelting to remove most impurities. It is twice as durable as Steel and weighs one-fifth as much. It also accepts runes and enchantments as readily as any other metal."

I'm guessing this is a bit of 'lost in translation. Mithril wasn't removed from WFRP whilst belonging to GW as it was OOP. However when the licence changed hands, Mithril wasn't taboo so it was explained as a type of Gromril.

Interesting stuff, and you could rule several ways on it. Personally I think my answer is logical, but maybe I'm biased.

[plasmoid]

Hi Harvestmouse,
you only get so many posts about how much you dislike the roster before I have to post a reply too

Swap the Wrestle on the blockers (now runners to sure hands and give them ma7). With the access change (ok I know access isn't added to the price) MA increase, inferior sure hands to wrestle it all makes a bit of sense.

For me that would be a horrible solution.
The Whole feudal essence of the team is that the blitzers do everything, while their yeomen help them to shine.
I'd absolutely hate it if the yeomen were the ones running the ball and scoring the TDs.

I always felt that wrestle and fend were tacked to the side of this roster, due to them being new skills and not utilized in any starting roster.

I think wrestle was the perfect solution and not tacked on in the slightest.
Wrestle is excellent for clearing the way for the blitzers.
It also doesn't combo particularly well with either Guard or straight bashing - encouraging the coach to at least consider other options that ones that 99% of S-players pick.
Finally, wrestle is not good to have on a ball carrier, encouraging the coach to get the ball into the hands of the glory hogging blitzers.

Fend, didn't have to be fend, so if that makes it tacked on to you then fair enough.
We tested several stats and skills over the years, and was looking for something defensive - but Dodge was too good. When Fend came along it was just the thing needed.

Cheers
Martin

[harvestmouse]

Yes, but they aren't Yeoman anymore, they're blockers....and they ain't blockers! They'd be better off being runners. My gripe is renaming the Yeoman to blockers. Which means that I dislike the roster more than I disliked it before. They no longer fit into your peasant and knight theme, as they're a..... I don't know what they are tbh.

As for the other points we'd be going around in circles. We both know we can't agree on design policy, we're polar opposites.

However 2 comments being:

Why did your line need any skill? They aren't skilled. We already have stats for a poorly turned out lineman in the thrall. 6 3 3 7 lineman seems standard for a poorly turned out human.

If you're trying to replicate a feudal nation, why drop the medieval postionals in favour of sporting positionals? Seems at odds. I think you needed to go 2 tier roster. Or 2 different levels of knights or accept there are Squires/Yeoman who do some stuff too. In short I don't feel the essence you describe.

I look at it like this. Before the BBRC started mucking around with the rosters in LRB 5, what extra skills on top of the regular skills did the teams have (that don't describe a positional)?

High Elves - none/after lrb 5 tacked on safe throw
Dwarfs - Tackle on Longbeards (why, Longbeards are elites/Dwarfs are annoying hard to get rid of so tackle) Thick Skull - describes Dwarfs perfectly. Slayers Frenzy (describes a frenzied player) Dauntless (describes their slaying of bigger critters). Nothing weird here apart from maybe tackle, but a hard team to convert.
Undead - None after lrb 5 skeletons have thick skull (yeah ok, very hard to describe skeletons really)
Lizardmen - Krox has a prehensile tail/they do have tails
Wood Elves - Wardancers come with dodge and leap (leap certainly describes a wardancer well. Dodge is a standard skill and makes dancers more elite). After lrb 5 catchers lose MA and gain sprint.
Skaven - None Big guy fits standard frenzy big guy
Chaos - Beastman and Mino horns (They have horns)
Goblin/Orcs - Troll has regenerate (Trolls can regenerate)
Vampires - Vamps have hypno and BL (describes a vamp perfectly)
Dark Elves - Witches have frenzy (are a player subject to frenzy) after lrb 5 Runners have dump off/Assassins have Shadowing (but a new type of player so....)
Khemri - none after lrb 5 decay, but yeah fine.
Ogres - none after lrb 5 side step snotlings.
Nurgle - Lots of weird stuff, but all to describe this roster.
Halflings - Treeman, different creature Stand firm/Take root describes a tree. After lrb 5 Strong Arm, tacked on to make the team stronger but.......I guess trees do have the strongest arm. Passable.

All these teams use the same concepts for roster design. This being a standard human lineman has 6 3 3 8 G access, and needs a good reason to be described differently and to break the racial describing.

Postional describing is thus:

Blitzer +1 MA on a lineman, comes with block.
Blocker -1 MA on a lineman, +ST on a lineman. May come with extra armour, could be -2 MA (we don't really have enough of these now to know). Comes with S access.
Catcher +2 MA on a lineman. -1 AV. Comes with AG access. Comes with catch. May come with dodge as this is a common skill to describe agile players.
Thrower Comes with pass access. May have less armour than a lineman. May have more movement than a lineman. May be the same stats as a lineman. Comes with pass, may come with sure hands.
Runner Extra movement on a lineman. Less armour than a lineman. May come with and probably should come with sure hands.

Standard skills to describe sport player positionals: Block, Dodge, Catch, Sure hands, Pass. Anything else is added because it's a different positional or a new creature.

Problem rosters:

The cookie cutters:

Norse and Zons seem to have totally different design methods than the above teams. Ok, we can see what they did. Take average players with low armour and give them a cookie cutter top end skill. The end result is they don't meld well with the other traditional rosters.

Zons - Dodge, female, lithe agile, dodge describes this.
Norse - Block (not sure what this describes) Frenzy and Jump up (we have a frenzied player that refuses to stop even when hurt describes well. After lrb 5 I can't believe the same people made the Norse changes that did the 3 new rosters. The design principles are just on a different planet. A catcher come runner. A berserker player that's a shape changer but actually isn't. And a blitzer that in a time where rosters are given traditional titles is now called a berserker. It now plays better with the original rosters but describing is a real real mess. Particularly the runner.

Newer teams, these teams seem to have a different design policy again. Tact on skills
Pro Elves - I guess the theme is a kind of harlequin hard to hit and the very best throwing catching team on the planet. So side step and nerves of steel. SS works for me, but I'm not sure on nos.
Necro - weird but some weird critters. Catch is one of the standard positional skills so.....however better it was removed for regenerate on the wolves. Flesh Golem is an odd creature again. Stand Firm is odd, but with the Treeman it describes a big thing that plants itself.

Pact, Slann, Underworld:

I think these 3 were described brilliantly. Pact have replaced the positional humans with all round Marauders. Ok it doesn't really fit a Marauder marauding, but it does describe chaos and positionals. Slann were always way out there, none of their players were normal. It does a great job of translating the 2nd ed roster though. I think we have to accept that their giant frog aliens that break protocol. Underworld - again great. I like the animosity, describes well.

So what is my point here? My point is you can see from the original rosters they were very careful to keep players within a boundary. A blitzer should act like a blitzer. Not come with bells on to make a roster interesting. I think you should make each team to the stand set positional, and then add anything that fits the racial trait.

With Brets you have broken the traditional roster design more than any other roster.

Lineman: -ag, -av, extra skill fend. -av ok, they are poorly turned out humans.
Yeoman: Standard Lineman stats with S access and the new skill wrestle that's never been put on a human.
Blitzers: Lost S access, gained P access. No other blitzer has P access in the game. Added skills Dauntless and Catch. Ok, Dauntless (fear nothing) describes a Knight. Catch is one of the standard skills.

In short, it's too much deviation. Don't get me wrong, it looks a lot of fun, but it just muddies the water of positional description. I don't see the peasant/noble theme, that too is diluted with the middle totally way out there described Yeoman (now a blocker).

Like the khorne roster, the basics are fine and it's not a million miles away from making sense.

*Lineman become normal lineman - 6 3 3 7. poorly turned out humans like thralls.
*Yeoman can be named what you like and become runners. 7 3 3 7 sure hands GP access. Poor armour. Starts to get the 'runner' position making sense. Knights refuse to run to the back of the field to get the ball themselves and force the Yeoman to do it for them, while they take all the glory by hitting snotlings and smiling at the girls. Then taking the ball back to score.
Blitzers/Knights well here you have your creativity. You could even have a couple of types. You could deviate on armour, and movement. You can use skills such as block, dauntless, stand firm anything that describes on fear. Definitely S access though and maybe more. You could go with a really expensive positional.

Anyway, that's my tuppence and why I think your roster design is dangerous. It totally disregards definite positional guidelines the original rosters set up. Very clear roles.

[plasmoid]

Hi Harvestmouse,

Yes, but they aren't Yeoman anymore, they're blockers....and they ain't blockers!

Yeah, that bothers me a lot as well! Really does. Especially because the team blurp still mentions yeomen - AFAIK at least. Between that and the way the players look, I hope that people will get the point.
But it's not a decision that I'm happy with.

Why did your line need any skill? They aren't skilled.

They need a skill because humans are 6337 + something. Only thralls aren't.
(And then the peasant gets AG-gimped because he is not a professional player)

If you're trying to replicate a feudal nation, why drop the medieval postionals in favour of sporting positionals?

I'm describing a feudal culture rather than a feudal army. I'd have been perfectly happy to call them peasants, yeomen and nobles (not knights, actually), but a lot of people on here were against that. "Too warhammery being the generic complaint".

As for the rest of it - you're arguing from a position of what was or ought to be.
I'm arguing from a position of what is.

I really don't get your list of teams that only use the core skills. When there is then an absolute bucketload of exceptions. All of them explainable. Sure. If so inclined. Could do the same with Brets.
And as I said. It makes no sense to me to design teams based on the past.
Only the old farts will get it (Just so we're clear, I'm an old fart myself).

Same with the list of positionals.
There are so many alternatives that it isn't really a system. Just a list of what is.
And even that list isn't flawless. Like the skaven blitzer being not a lineman with MA+.

I'm fully aware that you don't like the team.
I don't think that it jars with what is. Only with what was.
I designed the team honestly trying to portray what the team would play like. I'm sorry you think that the skills are tacked on. Not a lot I can do about it. But there was a lot of thought behind them.

I'm quite happy with the dynamics of the team and the way they play. I think it is indeed glory hogging elites, useless cannon fodder, and the support players who are by no Means exceptional, but make the stars shine even brighter.

I'm also very happy (as I just wrote somewhere else) that skill selection is not clear cut (or is that cookie cut) for the developing Bret team. Lots of new decisions.

And I'm happy that it is a decent meta counter to CPOMB in the team - should the coach decide to build on the wrestle and fend theme.

Cheers
Martin

[harvestmouse]

Yeah, as I said I don't think we'll agree, we're just polar opposites. However I feel the original teams were made in way on purpose, clarity and to represent physical capabilities, that each exception (that isn't explainable) dilutes what they achieved.

The Skaven Blitzer has extra AV, he wears extra armour. That's allowable.

I'm happy with your blitzer type, I think you can be creative with him. I just think you go too far and blur things with the others. Is it coincidental that Fend and Wrestle are 2 new skills? I believe not.

However, that was not my original point and why I brought it back up. Yes, you know I don't like the roster, but I've known they're using it so........it was purely to point out they've now made a blocker positional out of a player that isn't a blocker (or a known positional). I don't know, maybe there's a call (like inventing runners) for a quasi auxiliary blitzer type like your Yeoman in the game, but not called blockers!

[plasmoid]

If I could change the name I would.

[harvestmouse]

I know you would. Which comes back to the start of the apple. Cyanide are lose on the streets of metropolis with a tank cannon.