New Strength Skill

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 9:22 pm

sean newboy wrote:Sounds like u guys are talking about things that u havent researched.

Actually, if you read my post, you should notice that it's pretty much full of questions. I'm not giving any strong opinions, only the suspicion that this could have the potential of being misused if taken alot.

A good example is the old diving tackle. Sure it wasn't a problem as long as there were only the occasional player, but when a few ST4 players had it, it was quite a problem.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 9:34 pm

Some teams would have problems dealing with a 3 ST stiff arm ballcarrier, though wouldn't they? Amazons, the 3 Elf teams and Norse and Skaven to some extent because WA's can have their Blitzing options taken away from them. It would make Dauntless (which is already good) indespensible on any predominantly 3 strength team.

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 1:06 pm

Mestari
Your absolutely correct about 3rd ed dt, i had a lizardmen team with 3 saurus with it and 3 skinks with block,dauntless, dt. The team was very much a p.i.a..

Skummy
Personally i think every predominantly st3 team should have at least 2 dauntless players.

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 1:23 pm

sean newboy wrote:Personally i think every predominantly st3 team should have at least 2 dauntless players.

Seems very sensible - the difficulty is ensuring that the right players get the doubles roll to take it.

Martyn

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 1:31 pm

Doesnt really matter, if they get double and u dont need leader or something give them dauntless now and block on their second skill. I consider dauntless necessary on all my teams sooner or later. U never know where your strong guys will be from time to time.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 12:14 am

Marcus wrote:Dwarven team - Longbeards with Guard, Blitzers and Runners with Stiff Arm.

I smell an ouch.

(PS - How is Grambo? haven't played him in years )

Me either...he pretty much only plays offline nowadays. But I send him emails now and then. He works for EA designing the sports games (Tiger Woods Gold lately, I think)

Anyway about these skills, the more I think about them, the more I think they might be a little too good...not sure. I didn't really think REAL hard about it or do any math, I just thought I'd post it here and let you guys do it for me.

jaylazer · Post by **jaylazer** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 8:46 pm

sean newboy wrote:In the mbbl2 i used both Jam and Stiff Arm. Jam is a waste of time, i will never ever ever take it again with anyone less than ag 6, even then i probably wont. Stiff arm on my st 3 guy was nice but not overpowering, however i dint try it on a majority of the team.

I've got both Stiff Arm (line-elf) and Jam (Wardancer). I haven't found either to be over powering but they both work well.

I personally think Jam is a great skill for Wardancers. Maybe not their first skill, but a good 2nd or 3rd skill. Against a 3 ST, 3 AG player you've got a 50-50 chance of them not being able to blitz you.

I've had it work in my favor many times.

Stiff Arm hasn't been as useful but I haven't been very agressive with it. I use the player to secure a side line. A ST 3 player needs 2 assists so it makes it harder. I also send him into the back field when the timeing works.

I wouldn't say either was overpowered and both are useful.

D'Arquebus · Post by **D'Arquebus** » Sat Apr 05, 2003 12:55 pm

Came late to this debate but I think I have to say ouch!

I have to say for starters that Dauntless is a Trait, and this is a Skill. A team of this with only a few (if that) Dauntless players to cope would be very nasty.

sean newboy wrote

Do u really want to fill a team with a skill usable only 1 time in the opponents turn?

I think that argument could equally be applied to Dirty Player (if from the other side, ie only once in your own turn). But most people would say that was pretty bad if taken and used all the time. And that is to name only one skill. See the arguments raging over PO at the moment for another. My Elf tactics were to dodge back a great deal and form tacklezone screens two deep in places etc. This Skill would mean that the one Blitz every turn would be very much to my advantage.

sean newboy wrote

There is also the matter of assists, a not so experimental technique.

Yes there is, however it is not always easy to take down a blodge elf anyway or to get an assist if he has some help along. Also as was said, not everyone can get Horns or Dauntless. This makes a difficult task very much more difficult.

Everyone here has said that they had not seen it as overpowered but I think Mestari is right on this one

...only the suspicion that this could have the potential of being misused if taken alot.

At the very least, making it a trait would help to limit this overabundence of this (very potent) Skill.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 2:18 pm

Pariah wrote:Has the MBBL or the MBBL 2 ever thrown out a whacky new rule because it didn't work? I don't know the history of the MBBL 2 but I know the MBBL has yet to find a broken rule...anybody find that odd?

Bullsh*t Pariah ... someday you really need to think before you speak.

The MBBL has yet to find find a broken rule .... we've modified the Khemri, the Kicking rules, ... H*LL there is more stuff we've modified from our playtesting than we've kept. You are so freaking clueless as to what the MBBL is doing it really amazes me that you actually play in the league.

As for the MBBL2, we've thrown out entire teams if they didn't work. After every season, we review the rules and throw out or modify things that don't work especially for skills and team compositions (in fact the MBBL2 is currently in the process of powering down the Golem, Khemri, and Wild Cards team further). I have no idea why you think I'm some clueless commish Pariah, but the VAST majority of your posts when you talk about either my league indicate that I cannot see my own results. You really haven't the foggest, do you.

Sorry, Pariah's favorite game is to degrade my ability as a commish, and a comment like the MBBL has never found a broken rule is such complete cr*p that I know realize that despite the fact he actually plays in the MBBL, Pariah doesn't have a clue.

When you get the 2003 Annual, Pariah, if you ever do. Compare the BB Mag version of the teams to what the MBBL has tested and modified. I think you'll see we've had a H*LL of an impact.

You know Pariah ... NOT ONCE did I ever slam your league's style of play when everyone else did on the BBC. You were a bruality league and as far as I was concerned that was all good for you. However, despite your protests to the contrary, you continue to suggest I'm a bad commish in multiple posts here and on the MBBL's own discussion group.

Its funny ... I never threw stones at you, but you feel free to cast the first one at me all the time ....

Now moving on the people who had something of worth to comment to.

Galak

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 2:41 pm

Mestari wrote:
sean newboy wrote:Sounds like u guys are talking about things that u havent researched.
Actually, if you read my post, you should notice that it's pretty much full of questions.

I think Sean's comment was rightfully directed at Pariah ... thanks Sean ... read Pariah's comment first and responded without see the support you threw in. Glad to have other poster back up of my statements.

Anyway, Stiff Arm ... as Mestari predicted ... all I can tell you is that after 2 1/2 league seaons I have only five teams that have players with the skill, and the MBBL2 frequently changes skills/teams that have problems and this one has not appeared on the radar screen in the history of the league to date.

Some notes on Stiff Arm:

1) Not working against adjacent blocks means that a lot of players don't take it as skills that work more often like Side Step and Block are much more attractive.
2) We currently have 5 teams in the MBBL2 with Stiff Arm players out of 64 ... ie its not floodling the league but it is the most popular of the MBBL2's new skills allowed.
3) The wording that it only effects the first blitz hit means that a player with Frenzy (or Double Blitz) gets to make the second hit without Stiff Arm applying. This means that Frenzy, Dauntless, and Horns all become effective methods of cancelling Stiff Arm out.
4) Stiff Arm is one of those skills that increases the value of skills like Shadowing, Pass Block, and Tentacles that keep you adjacent to the player. Three lesser taken skills. I like skills that increase the usefulness of other lesser used skills. (Just like I like the flip side skill, Juggernaut which decreases the value of Block).

So who has Stiff Arm right now in the MBBL2:
A wardancer, A wood elf lineman, a Ninja (wardancer without block), a Pixie (MA 6 Snotling), and a Skink. No one even on teams that have retired has taken the skill on a doubles roll.

That's it so far. In no way would I suggest that the skill wouldn't need some good testing in a LRB league to see how it does. The MBBL2 so far has not shown the problem ... that doesn't mean its not there. However, I'm am willing to say that I think it would have potential to be a good addition to the game.

And Wes, Stiff Arm was added to the MBBL2 when we started 2 years ago as a replacement for folks like you who REALLY liked the old Diving Tackle. It was meant to be DT's replacement and its worked well for us.

Galak

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 3:04 pm

I'm gonna temproarily remove my self imposed posting ban because I need to reply to someone I respect.

Actually Galak, you proved my point.
Did you ever use a rule that just plain didn't work and you had to scrap it?
Did any of those changes get made AFTER you play tested them? I believe you changed the teams and the kicking rules and then playtested them. And lo and behold they were balanced.

If I'm wrong and we tested kicking rules that are now changed then I apologize but I don't recall any changes to rules that we playtested. I also don't recall ever playtesting a rule in that league that came out broken. What one was it? Changing them before you playetst them doesn't show anything. All it means is that you thought it might be broken and made a tweak.

And I do mean it that I respect you as a coach and a commish. I just think you are very biased about the results you get in playtesting things.
Your inability to see that a lot of people don't like the EXP system is a perfect example. I'm not slamming you. I'm presenting what I see to be facts. If you don't like that, then I'm sorry but it doesn't create any more coaches who want an EXP system.

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 3:21 pm

If I'm wrong and we tested kicking rules that are now changed then I apologize but I don't recall any changes to rules that we playtested.

Technically your rite the mbbl did not test any other kicking rules. However your still wrong because the mbbl3 did during the 2k1 test league days (praying that i someday forget that league ever existed). Personally i dont need to hit my balls with a hammer to know that it would hurt, playtesting should not be needed in some cases. Do any of the 1200 people on this board feel a team made entirely to the below stats needs playtesting?

0-16 9 4 4 9 Block Dodge

By the way the mbb2 has changed many teams after testing, biggest case in point the Brettonians.

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 3:35 pm

I think there's a big difference in a 9 4 4 9 Blodge player and a small tweak to the kicking rules.

My point is that while I respect Galak he unable to see his own bias towards certain rules. The Pact teams are a perfect example. Lots of people still have reservations about them but according to Fanatic they are just fine. I still say an abused Chaos Pact team in a small league with mainly low AV teams will run amok. Testing 20 X teams in a league 40 (where they all play each other and none of them play established teams proves diddley squat) Earlier I asked Galak how many of the last top 10 teams were also in the top ten. His reply? not many, only 6 out of 10. Hmmn. 3/5 is not a majority or a lot? You see no bias there?
He still claims support for the EXP system, but where is it? Only 3 people on this board voted in favor of testing it! Yet the BBRC is convinced (because of the all the retro fitting the MBBL has done) that it's a good system. If my team doesn't have the skills to win the game until after the game how does that prove anything? It's

Like I said, I don't mean this as an insult but I guess that's how Galak sees it. It doesn't really matter because I've grown sick of the anti-american crap that is allowed on this board and I'll be moving on.

Galak, if you think I have nothing but bullshit to say then remove me from the MBBL. All I've done is state the the truth but if you think I'm just slamming you and trying to burn down the EXP system and the MBBL out of spite or jealousy or something then remove me. I really have lost a lot of respect for you if you can't look at both sides of the coin and getting your name on the Blood Bowl box is more important than making rules we enjoy.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 3:57 pm

Pariah wrote:I'm gonna temproarily remove my self imposed posting ban because I need to reply to someone I respect.

Thanks Eric ... I respect your opinion as well, so I think I need to give you some more information. I think your comment came from misinformation.

Did you ever use a rule that just plain didn't work and you had to scrap it?

The Stadium rules for the MBBL2, the Albion roster for the MBBL2, the Minotaur team for the MBBL2, the Brettonian team for the MBBL2, the Raise Dead rules for the Khemri for the MBBL2, the original Chaos spell for the Spellcasters in the MBBL2, and the original rules for the Rotters and the Elementalists rosters. I'm sure there is more, I typed as I thought of things.

I'd say at this point, I've thrown out from the MBBL2 almost as much as I've added based on our playtesting.

Did any of those changes get made AFTER you play tested them? I believe you changed the teams and the kicking rules and then playtested them. And lo and behold they were balanced.

Yes, all the above did for the MBBL2 AFTER playtesting. The MBBL is really the continuation of the MBBL3. Here are the things that I can think of that have changed AFTER playtesting across those leagues:
1) The Kicking rules have changed DRAMATICALLY based on testing from when the MBBL3 began the process that the MBBL continued. Sean confirmed this, but the reason the kicking rules didn't get changed yet in the MBBL is that over 200 games were played with them in the MBBL to iron out the bugs. The MBBL3 tested the rules, they were changed significantly and printed in the first Annual. More testing on the side lead to another rewrite before the MBBL started testing (compare the MBBL rules to the 2002 Annual). So AFTER testing the kicking rules have had 2 major rewrites from MBBL testing.
2) The Khemri team. After seeing the success of David Allen, the Khemri team dropped Mighty Blow and got Foul Appearance and went to all AG 2. This change was made after testing the team, and at a minimum the all AG 2 will become an official part of the team.
3) The Chaos Pact team. YOUR testing Eric has resulted in the team only being able to have 2 Big Guys starting with Season 3 and if the team becomes official, I'm sure this will be an actual change as well from the original rules. This one is why I blasted you with my post. I've already posted this change which was based entirely on your team's results and then you come on and say nothing changes from the testing when your testing caused one of the 3 changes of the MBBL to date.

In fact, I can link 3 names to the drives behind the above changes: 1) Jon DeYoung, 2) David Allen, 3) Eric Reither.

If I'm wrong and we tested kicking rules that are now changed then I apologize but I don't recall any changes to rules that we playtested. I also don't recall ever playtesting a rule in that league that came out broken. What one was it? Changing them before you playetst them doesn't show anything. All it means is that you thought it might be broken and made a tweak.

I hope the above explains what has changed. Also keep in mind that tweaking the system and then finding it is working is also part of the process. The MBBL is composed of some pretty good coaches, the fact that quite often we get the changes right on paper BEFORE testing isn't really a negative in my opinion.

I just think you are very biased about the results you get in playtesting things.

On this we'll disagree, but we always have. If you could see how the MBBL2 works, I think you'd see that I really do look very closely at playtest data and what needs changed. PLEASE keep in mind that I CANNOT change any rule in the MBBL without BBRC approval ... its how I set the league up ... it is their league not mine in reality. So there may have been something I would change that I cannot get agreement with. Since the MBBL2 is a dicatorship which listens to the voices of the people, it runs very differently from the MBBL. Example .... the MBBL2 is going to use 7 as the point that EXP starts as I personally think that a better starting point from what I've seen in the MBBL testing.

Your inability to see that a lot of people don't like the EXP system is a perfect example.

A lot of people that have never played with it. The voting for the MBBL form the 44 coaches playing with it is 50/50 right now. Those are the people I'm listening to. TBB is a great sounding board, but I'll take experience over conjucture 99.9% of the time when trying to form my opinions ... that's the difference here. Its not my inability to see ... its that I don't agree that I should be looking at 1000 people without TVs and seeing what they think about a concept for a new show that is running on CBS.

I'm not slamming you. I'm presenting what I see to be facts. If you don't like that, then I'm sorry but it doesn't create any more coaches who want an EXP system.

I hope this helps explain some things. Some of your assumptions were incorrect, and as for who I should be listening to about certain .... we'll agree to disagree. I think if you really look at the MBBL you'll see that a lot more things that the TBB crowd has said they wanted have made it in than have not .... I do listen and read.

Galak

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Sun Apr 13, 2003 3:59 pm

The Pact teams are a perfect example. Lots of people still have reservations about them but according to Fanatic they are just fine.

I dont see your point here, i need clarification.

Testing 20 X teams in a league 40 (where they all play each other and none of them play established teams proves diddley squat)

Good point, set up a better test league (not that thats what the mbbl2 is), i will play. Till u do your just attacking what exists and not finding a solution. In fact i disagree with your constantly putting the mbbl and mbbl2 in the same category altogether. Why are u constantly kvitching about the 2 leagues as if they are both the same animal? Try to stick to one subject at a time. The mbbl is an lrb league, the mbbl2 is just a for fun league with lots of house rules that the coaches involved in enjoy. Galak has not put a single skill, team, or player into the mbbl from the mbbl2 without a mandate from the bbrc, so why do u continue to argue that he is not proving anything by running the mbbl2. If u want to argue about his playtesting system, stick to the issue, the mbbl, and leave the mbb2 out of it, your the only one claiming the 1 invalidates the other. Galak to my knowledge has never gone to the bbrc and said hey the mbbl2 proves x, the fact that he has said it in general on this board is not the same thing.

He still claims support for the EXP system, but where is it? Only 3 people on this board voted in favor of testing it!

I havent been following that topic for a while, how many of the some other system want one that incorporates exp, other than myself?

The rest of your comments are for Galak to respond to. Although i figure i know what he would say. Things like why should he ban u from the league if u want to play and will follow the rules.