Bretonnian roster... What's the deal?

[Manuel]

Khorne is just as it was when it was first "proposed" by Cyanide.

Believe me, it's not. It's not perfect, but it might as well be compared to what it could have been.

Sorry, but I don't think so. As far as the players concerns, it is. We were "surprisingly" presented a team nobody was asking for, with a certain design that many of us found full of defects. And correct me if I am wrong, but since their first appearence, no changes have been made, as no member or faction of the community has any control of said roster. THAT is the problem.

With Plasmoid's Bretts this issue is lessened by the fact that it has been there for some years, and I assume its playtesting in leagues and/or tournaments has influenced in the latest revisions of it. Fine. But that's completely different to blindly accept Cyanide's deliberately obscure inventions, where we cannot see or control what is being produced. "We", as in "BB community of players", not as in "selectively chosen designers under NDA agreements".

EDIT: Oh, and dode, I think you were involved in the Khorne desing, rigth? (You and Galak?) Please, explain me what is the reason behind the P access of the linemen, as it really troubles me. Was it really just for Leader purpouse? Any "the blood god blesses them with calm nerves" motivation, perhaps? I really can't figure it out...

[dode74]

Sorry, but I don't think so.

You can think that all you like, but it's a fact that the team we have now is entirely different to the team Cyanide proposed, and is only different due to player input. That you were presented with the team we have now as opposed to how it was before it was changed is no different to you being presented with the majority of the currently accepted rosters after their design.

And correct me if I am wrong, but since their first appearence, no changes have been made, as no member or faction of the community has any control of said roster. THAT is the problem.

You are wrong. Since their first appearance, to which you were not privy, they underwent a total redesign as a roster. The original roster was totally and utterly broken and the current roster is based on a well-tested house-rule roster: Savage Orcs. There were also several options mooted for alteration to the team (which have been well covered in these and other forums), but the team performance shows they are working pretty much in accordance with the design intent: Tier 1.5. Some people find them fun, too, which is good enough as I don't think there is a single team out there which everyone enjoys playing.
No member or faction of the community has control over any of the rosters, so I don't know what your point there is.

"We", as in "BB community of players", not as in "selectively chosen designers under NDA agreements".

When has that "we" ever been involved in roster design outside of houseruled rosters? Prior to the LRB era rule and roster changes were foisted upon the majority of the community. The BBRC made changes in the LRB era, and they were "selectively chosen designers" who I believe may have been under NDA at the time, just with GW, not with Cyanide. Where's the difference?

EDIT: Oh, and dode, I think you were involved in the Khorne desing, rigth? (You and Galak?) Please, explain me what is the reason behind the P access of the linemen, as it really troubles me. Was it really just for Leader purpouse? Any "the blood god blesses them with calm nerves" motivation, perhaps? I really can't figure it out...

Options for development and a way to ameliorate some of the TV bloat that starting with no block and lots of frenzy (therefore rerolls) on the team inevitably creates. So yeah, basically leader but also the possibility to create a passing game with the one position which might be able to remember there is a ball in the game! I don't expect everyone to like it in terms of fluff, but it works in terms of gameplay. As does the team. And no, I'm not suggesting the NAF should add Khorne to their list.

[Manuel]

As long as this

And no, I'm not suggesting the NAF should add Khorne to their list.

holds, I really don't care what people invent in their own house rules. But most of this debate comes from some people's claims and underrepresentative polls for those teams to be included in the "official" NAF rules. At least, that is what worries me.

You are wrong. Since their first appearance, to which you were not privy, they underwent a total redesign as a roster. The original roster was totally and utterly broken and the current roster is based on a well-tested house-rule roster: Savage Orcs.

Perhaps I did not express myself correctly, or you did not read it as I intended: For the players, it is irrelevant whether the VERY FIRST version of the roster were utterly broken, plain worse or whatever. The FIRST version WE SAW was still a deficient product, in the eyes of many. And don't take it as a personal attack, as it is not. For many, this roster is badly made, plain and simple.

You are right saying that the previous additional rosters followed similar procedures... or not? They may have been made by a privy group, true, but when they were finally presented, people liked them! You just have to check how fast the CRP was implemented everywhere and how happy everyone was. Perhaps not 100%... but now go ahead and compare it with the eternal debate there is with that Khorne stuff. Many people, me included, refuse to accept it for many and varied reasons. You have a precedent with the Golden Edition JJ made. It was intended to be "official", and the generalized rejection deprived it from any real officialty. So, when things are done right, they may be accepted. When they are not, the have to be forced... and still, they may be not accepted.

Adapting a Savage Orcs roster to one of Khorne? Most controversial bigguy ever? Unfluffy P barbarians? I don't blame the designers, as you have already stated there were severe limitations imposed (I would have abandoned the project and let it shink, as the Golden Edition, BTW), but again... I only care for the implications it may have upon the NAF tournaments.

[Rolex]

I might be biased by the fact I consider the DoK my favourite team (and I play ALL the teams), but I have to mostly agree with dode.

New teams and rule changes can be commented by the community and input can be provided, but I should alwaysbe done by a chosen competent few.
The thought that the game can be influenced by people that don't play with other people, but only by themselves is simply terrorizing.

The discussion I read on this forum are proof enough.

If some people find DoK "unfluffy" I can only say some " accepted" rosters are a lot more so (vampires are very unfluffy).

From a game mechanic and balance point of view the roster is very good.
The fun factor is personal. For me the roster is the more fun and interesting to play than any other roster, but that's personal.

From the fluff perspective the roster is a compromise....as are many of existing rosters.
And as it should be.

If the committee was ever to be created again, dode would be the third man I would want in in order of preference.

[dode74]

As long as this holds, I really don't care what people invent in their own house rules.

We are in agreement there.

The FIRST version WE SAW was still a deficient product, in the eyes of many. And don't take it as a personal attack, as it is not. For many, this roster is badly made, plain and simple.

I'll start by saying I don't take it personally - you can't please all the people all of the time, and you will more often hear from those who are unhappy than those who are happy.
That said, in the eyes of many others it is a good and fun roster (see Rolex's comment above). It is played at a similar rate to other non T1 races in both leagues and MM. As far as popularity goes it is on par with other teams of a similar level. That fact alone puts paid to your comment "when they were finally presented, people liked them!" People do like Khorne, just not you (among others).

now go ahead and compare it with the eternal debate there is with that Khorne stuff. Many people, me included, refuse to accept it for many and varied reasons.

Go look at all the debate where it is actually played. You'll see... none. Why? Because people who play it like it. People who don't like it don't play it. It's the same with any team. The fact is, though, that the team is accepted, just not by the NAF.

when things are done right, they may be accepted. When they are not, the have to be forced... and still, they may be not accepted.

You seem to be under the impression that anyone actually cares whether or not Khorne is NAF sanctioned. I, for one, do not. The NAF should do what is right for the NAF, and I am not privy to enough information to second-guess them on that. I will provide them (and have provided them) with all the information I can to enable them to make a decision, but I do not want to be involved in that decision itself with my current information level. If the NAF decides it is a sanctioned roster then so be it.
The fact is, though, that Khorne is accepted on the Cyanide platform, just as Brets will be. The NAF can do whatever it likes and it will have no effect on what is effectively the only existing licensed version of BB still on sale. I realise that is a controversial comment, but it is a fact. Similarly, other platforms will do whatever is best for them: FUMBBL will continue with Stunty and Secret League, and more power to them; the NAF will do what is best for their tournaments; individual leagues will do whatever they want to do. And that's fine. In fact, that's what the rules say you should do:

• a League Commissioner’s word is always final on the rules used by the league

Adapting a Savage Orcs roster to one of Khorne? Most controversial bigguy ever? Unfluffy P barbarians?

All of these have been discussed at length here already. I'm not going to drag this thread into that discussion but would be happy to cover it by PM if you prefer.

I would have abandoned the project and let it shink, as the Golden Edition, BTW

I suspect if you knew all the facts or were in my position you would not have.

[Manuel]

I don't see any conflict then, as I don't care about how it is played in Cyanide, nor do you seem to care how NAF tournaments are played.

[DinoTitanedition]

@Darkson

This is where I notice how different perception is. I have read them and I found them to be quite humorous. The only other books I`ve read from the BL were the Gotrek and Felix novels, wich cleary differentiated from the BB style. I`m not sure if the BB novels are
childish, it`s more probably that the novels don`t take themselves that serious, wich, personally, I`m fine with. But even if the term
"childish" would be appropriate.....grown men debating about rules and background of a boardgame and filling entire forums with this
topic....you get my point.

The inaccuraccies you mention apply only if you refer to the ruleset of the game itself. In a story the don`t seem to be off. But then
again....perception and so on...

@Gaixo

I haven`t really followed the legal discussion between Cyanide and GW to be honest. At the time the game came out was simply satisfied that something like that came out. Now that they also produce Mortheim as a video game, I`m pretty sure they have a comfortable agreement with the company.

@Wulfyn

I love that you wrote that! The answer to the questions why the peasants are peasants and not nobles is obvious - someone has to do the dirty work. No real knight of Brettonia would of course ever do that. That stuff is for such lowlifes as the common inhabitant of the BB universe, not for the best of what BB`s humanity has to offer! And now, back to the frog-plate sire...


@Manuel

Some really interesting stuff on your post.

Well, I'm happy to read you are not assuming that, but a lot of people come up with that reasoning when arguing why Khorne and Brett should be included in the NAF tournaments. You don't have to believe me, just take a look at the very long old posts covering that thing.

A lot of people? You mean a lot of NAF members want those teams to be official NAF teams? Well that`s the NAF`s problem, not every other organisations. Do not mistake the NAF as the or the only BB community. As I have stated before....it`s a good thing the NAF exists, but, seemingly to me, it is more of a focuspoint for the gamers more active on fummbl.

Answer that please: Why Khorne and Brettonia? Why not Chaos Halflings (from stunty leegue)? Why not Apes?
The only clear difference I can see so far is that the first ones are Cyanide implemented ones, while the second ones are from Fumbbl.

And, undouptfully Cyanide has a closer conenction to the actual owner of the game than fumbbl. That might be one reason, why perception tends to accept those teams more than for example apes. Another reason might be, that they are closer to the fluff the latest incarnation of BB, which is also pretty obvious...

Is that good, better, bad or worse? I guess it's a matter of taste, but as Darkson has pointed out, by making them NAF you would be forcing people to include them in their tournaments.

Nope, you wouldn`t. Only people who want to participate in NAF tournaments would be forced and that of course only if someone would force people to play on NAF tournaments, wich isn`t the case. So nobody forces anything upon anybody. Everyone is free to attend to the tournaments the individual person wants to attend to, or even to host it`s own tournament, where the individual might also allow apes.

If people want to make the game more played, I am all in it. But why do you think periodically altering the ruleset would increase the influx of new players?

Manuel, the ruleset isn`t altered. The bretonnian roster uses everything there is without adding any new rules, even though their playstyle differs a lot from what we`re used to see. What it offers is a broader variation of existing background wich suits more possible attendants of the game.

Noob

I`m sorry to bring this up, but there is something I really do not like about this word.....it creates an "elite"part in a community, clearly trying to the distinguish themselves from beginners. It implicates that those new players are "not as good as the elite". Even though that might be....it creates an extremely negative pictures towards people who want to join the community. Maybe that is one of the reasons we need fresh wind in this game....

And please, please, please, answer also this: Why do Khorne linemen have P access? I guess I could live with the rest of the roster, but that is the most absurd thing of all, in my opinion.

I agree on this one totally. It seems odd, but since there is better skills the Gladiators can access, you won`t see many people taking passskills to often for them. In my opinion the Gladiators could simply be left without P access, leaving them only with G. But hey....weren`t we discussing the Bretonnians

Sorry, but I don't think so. As far as the players concerns, it is. We were "surprisingly" presented a team nobody was asking for, with a certain design that many of us found full of defects.

Who is many? Did someone ask me? No? Do not ALL the voices count alike? Do we have a two-class community growing? In this case the "Supride-present" was justified.

@dode74

Some people find them fun, too, which is good enough as I don't think there is a single team out there which everyone enjoys playing.

Haha...and now you want to tell me not everyone loves orcs! Admit it...GREEN IS GOOD!

[dode74]

I don't see any conflict then, as I don't care about how it is played in Cyanide, nor do you seem to care how NAF tournaments are played.

I do care how NAF tournaments are played. I just don't think it's my call either way.

Out of curiosity, have you ever actually played the team?

Dino - damned orcses...

[Manuel]

A lot of people? You mean a lot of NAF members want those teams to be official NAF teams?

By "A lot" I was referring to the recent polls on Facebook, the NAF forum, and the Spanish forum. "A lot" reflects my personal feeling of reading people's reactions.

Only people who want to participate in NAF tournaments would be forced and that of course only if someone would force people to play on NAF tournaments

I was referring to the organizers of the tournaments, who would have to allow that rosters whether they want it or not.

the ruleset isn`t altered

Ehm... that may be semantics, but to me, something that is in the rulebook and that describes how the game is played, affects the ruleset.

Noob

Well, I did not meant any "elite" meaning. If you read it in its context, it is about teaching new players. As may see, I am not a native english speakers, so I am not aware of its derogatory meaning. Noob? Newbie? Rookie? Whatever fits better.

Who is many?

Many refers to all the threads covering the Khorne roster. No, I did not ask you. But you sure can found enough people saying they don't like it, not just me.

And Dode, I have played against them, not with them. In NAF sanctioned tournaments, by the way, which is pretty annoying.

[DinoTitanedition]

Well, I did not meant any "elite" meaning. If you read it in its context, it is about teaching new players. As may see, I am not a native english speakers, so I am not aware of its derogatory meaning. Noob? Newbie? Rookie? Whatever fits better.

Me neither and I believe this is why we are havig this high level conversation, tolerating each others meanings and reflecting it *thumbs up, all ten of them*!

Many refers to all the threads covering the Khorne roster. No, I did not ask you. But you sure can found enough people saying they don't like it, not just me.

Agreed. I believe the like and dislike is in balance, as on most of teams.



Now.....to bring the discussion back to it`s roots.....the Bretonnians.....I am open to conversion suggestions, as I intend to build one of those teams. Kako K.`s Pro-Human (they are the Pro`s if all the other humans are something else, right?) Brettonian conversion is nice, but I really do not want to cut my humanteam to pieces. So, any ideas?

[Darkson]

The fact is, though, that Khorne is accepted on the Cyanide platform, just as Brets will be.

Have they confirmed Khorne will be in BB2? I know they're not in the first 8.

[dode74]

By "A lot" I was referring to the recent polls on Facebook, the NAF forum, and the Spanish forum. "A lot" reflects my personal feeling of reading people's reactions.

Not a particularly good measure of the strength of feeling, though.

I have played against them, not with them. In NAF sanctioned tournaments, by the way, which is pretty annoying.

Why is that annoying? It's down to the tournament organiser to set the rules and down to the NAF to accept whatever match results they deem acceptable. Nobody is forcing you to go to these tournaments, and you presumably know the rules beforehand, so...

I've no idea how sanctioning works at the moment, but personally I don't see an issue with tournament organisers being allowed to use whatever rosters they see fit with the NAF only accepting match results between teams they deem acceptable. It would seem to be a reasonable compromise which makes the most people happy. Sure, it may mean that a few of your tournament games won't count towards NAF rankings, but is that really the main reason you go to tournaments? Would you be willing to compromise on one or two games not counting towards your ranking in order to further the happiness of others?

[Manuel]

Not a particularly good measure of the strength of feeling, though.

As good as you saying they have acceptance based on what you observe on Cyanide. Take a look at the amount of posts on Fumbbl asking for that roster to be implemented.

Rankins? Oh, I don't care at all about them, but I like to have a record of players I have played against, just that.

It is annoying to me because the basic premise that the roster has been made poorly, by a company that is not able to implement the rulebook 100%. What annoys me is the fact that this imperfection reaches the TT tournament scene, which goes under a very consistent and widely accepted canons that may vary slightly from one tournament to another, but in no way including new races.

Oh, and by the way, I just read about Team Management in Blood Bowl 2:
"For every seven matches played, a player will gain one 'year of careers'. After some years, and the closer he is to the maximum number of years (14), the bigger the chance for him to retire. You will need to manage your players wisely, recruiting rookies to train them, and/or making use of the new Player Marketplace to renew your pool of skilled, veteran players!"

I won't write anymore, as this goes widely out of topic... but there you have, another twist of the rules by Cyanide. For your sake, I hope it can be deactivated, or that it only affects league play... otherwise you will end up playing something totally different in a matter of months.

[dode74]

As good as you saying they have acceptance based on what you observe on Cyanide.

I doubt it. I get downloads of server data from Cyanide (for the purposes of managing a large online public league, but also for several scheduled leagues) so I can compare how many games each team plays. I know for a fact how many Khorne have played and how many people have played them and am able to actually compare it with other teams. I am measuring what people are actually doing as opposed to what people choose to say. It's a qualitative difference and is why I am able to say that Khorne is accepted: it's played as much as any other non T1 team.

I like to have a record of players I have played against, just that.

You still can do that, you know

It is annoying to me because the basic premise that the roster has been made poorly

Your opinion. Others disagree. Do you get annoyed every time you have to play a roster that you don't like?

by a company that is not able to implement the rulebook 100%

No argument about their ability to implement the rules, but the team was designed by players with the possibility of TT in mind. Why does Cyanide's inability to implement the rulebook have any effect on how Khorne play on TT?

What annoys me is the fact that this imperfection reaches the TT tournament scene, which goes under a very consistent and widely accepted canons that may vary slightly from one tournament to another, but in no way including new races.

"Imperfection" is quite the word to be bandying around this game. It's hardly perfect without Khorne! It's very good and a lot of fun, but "perfect"? I think not. I'm also somewhat unconvinced that no tournaments ever let in other races. ISTR reading otherwise, but stand to be corrected there.

I've no idea if Cyanide's ageing rule will be optional or not. I hope so. I doubt many people will be playing in "months" though, given the lack of races, and if things like ageing aren't optional then I doubt I'll be playing BB2 at all. BB1 works just fine, thanks, especially using off-server LAN leagues where you can use whatever rosters you like as well as all the star players...

[Manuel]

It's a qualitative difference and is why I am able to say that Khorne is accepted: it's played as much as any other non T1 team.

No way. Of course that people accept that roster, otherwise they wouldn't have bought that edition of the game! They also don't care enough about strict interpretation of the rules, if you can declare a Passing action after having moved and/or dodged. Or about chainpushing, which may change games by itself.

but the team was designed by players with the possibility of TT in mind

Didn't you had the hands tied and were forced to match some aesthetic criteria imposed by Cyanide? That alone is disgusting enough. That's what is "imperfect" to me.