Reconsidering the ruling on Khorne?

[plasmoid]

Hi Harvestmouse,
interesting roster. Not bad

However, the thing I asked about was the minimum number of changes you could live with. And maybe this is it. Maybe not.
My thinking is this: What if Cyanide could be made to tweak the roster for BB2?
You'd have to get past Dode, who thinks the fluff is fine.
And - IMO - you'd also have to consider the people who like the current roster. So - as few tweaks as possible.

I'll list my thinking:
Like you, I like the frenzy as a negaskill concept.
I also like the super-big-guy concept.
Good start.

I can live with no mutations. Daemons rarely mutate (BB = never(?)). And Khorne isn't that big on it either. So that could Work.

IMO, the problems are:
1) I really don't like the names. Pit Fighters could just be linemen. Heralds could be Beastmen of Khorne or Khorngor. Bloodletters seem too puny. And frankly so does the Bloodthirster - I mean, a major daemon with ST5??
I'd go:
Linemen, Khorngor, Bloodletters (modified stats), Herald. A herald seems more like something that could match an ogre or troll.

2) P-access Pit Fighters feels very 'tacked on'. I agree that S-access is very appropriate for Khorne. If this becomes too much (it's a highway to block, frenzy, POMB) then perhaps these crazy Guys could be just S. No plain access to block would certainly compound the frenzy as a negatrait angle!

3) I don't like that the (current) Heralds don't have Regen. Either daemons Regen or they don't. That's one of the reasons to rename these to Khorngor.

4) Bloodletters. This is the big one. Like you, I think they really ought to be ST4. Then Again, this would also be the change most likely to change the feel of the team. I prefer ST4, but would it still be the same team?
Either way, I don't like inventing new negaskills, and I think that Garions idea to use bloodlust, while cool, kind of transgresses on the vampire team identity.
Rather than a skill like instability, I'd stick them at AV7. Heck, even 6 if they had to. Pooof - back to the Warp.
I like them reasonably agile. Even the A-skills. But maybe they ought to be no-hands then. Some people talk a lot about Bloodletters being soul-bound to their swords. Maybe they could be soul-bound to big nasty spiky gloves too?
But how to really gimp them (if they have ST4). Would Wild Animal be too restrictive?

I lot of crazy thinking. Still open to discussion. But the above could translate to:
0-16 Linemen 6338 Frenzy S?
0-2 Khorngor 6338 Frenzy, Horns, Juggernaut GS
0-4 Bloodletters 7437 Frenzy/(MB?), Wild Animal, No Hands GAS
0-1 Herald (Bloodthirster stats)

Too much?
Cheers
Martin

[Darkson]

I don't know why people keep bandying the "khorne doesn't mutate" rubbish. Khorne mutates as much as Nurgle.

[harvestmouse]

Well the reason I stopped working with Garion, was that I felt I wasn't meeting half way. In that I mean I am very 'It's my idea or nothing'. Which wasn't good for what he wanted to achieve. I have wanted to do all these rosters for 20 odd years, so in reality what I think they should be is already in my head.

I'm trying to learn how to incorporate other peoples ideas in Stunty Leeg though (subconsciously probably because I'll be removed from the design group, if I didn't).

When Khorne came out I spoke to Dode a fair bit about it. Where we disagree is how the fluff is incorporated. He feels the fluff can be made to fit the roster, where I firmly believe you cannot do this in most cases. I think what they made is a fun roster to play, it just doesn't fit the creatures the list is trying to portray. Personally, the constraints they had on the project I think I would have walked away. Without knowing the situation exactly (which I wouldn't as I wasn't part of the team) I think the project was a lost cause. One of the hardest themes Cyanide could have picked, too many constraints, no room to add anything new. It was a bodge job. Adding Khorne as a first roster, was really a stupid idea. I think the decision was made on the team would look aesthetically and it does look good. I could see some really nice TT teams being made.

To make matters worse, the roster has suffered due to a rule/skill combo problem (we know the one). By not giving the linos access to Strength and Mutation access on regular rolls. This means that they become less killy than a normal chaos roster, which is just wrong. However if they did make it as killy, it would be less popular. A catch 22, and essentially by avoiding the combo a cope out. You can't mend broken bones with a band aid. A big problem for BB right now.

95% of my gaming now is by myself on a stand alone client. It leaves me in peace to play the rosters I want and the rest of the world can get on with destroying the game. I no longer play Table Top, I'm not sure why exactly. Up to 5 or 6 years ago figures meant the world to me. Now they have been replaced by pixels, maybe it has something to do with GWs cease and desist craziness, maybe not. However 5% of my gaming is still on FUMBBL, and if the NAF add it, Christer has said that he will follow. I do not want this. I do want new official rosters, but not if they are massively compromised like this one. I'm definitely not anti Cyanide on principal. I was hugely excited about them adding rosters, and I was massively disappointed at the outcome. I have mixed feelings about Galak; but I think he can make nice rosters. I'm a big fan of how Pact, Underworld and Slann turned out.

Personally I don't think the Cyanide roster can be saved. However if I was to name my biggest complaint about the roster. It would be that the Blood Letters are ST3.

To go through your points though.

1. I think half the idea here is the 'redness' of the team. The linemen in the armour and the red demons. Playing on a sprite client, they do look fantastic together. Why does the team have to have 4 positions? 3 simplifies things a little.

2. No G access on Linemen is a massive neg trait (for progression leagues, not quite as much for resurrection). I think if the team across the board had frenzy, that gives you a lot of room to bump up the strength. I know why Pact Marauders have P access, because the Allstars had throwers. So I could see why these guys would have P access (if they were named Marauders, but they aren't). Plus P access tends to be used as a Leader carry, which is something I totally despise. There is no need to have P access on them if they aren't going to be called Marauders.

For me Chaos humans can be kept quite simple:

AV 7: Thug
AV 8: Marauder
ST4: Chaos Warrior
Chaos human still part of human society: Cultist

3. I totally agree about the regen demon access. Also a Herald is a hero class Letter. We don't tend to add hero classes into BB (we have skilling instead, so essentially a Letter with skills would be a Herald). I really like the frenzy theme they did. I just think it should be across the board. Changing Heralds to Khorngors though, would most definitely be an improvement.

4. I spoke to Garion a lot about the neg trait. We really wanted instability of some kind. Remember his team is based on using the FUMBBL client. So blood lust with thralls is the best he could do. I'm hoping to push for instability on FUMBBL, if that happened then Garion well may change the neg trait of the team. My complaint about Garion's team was Loner with blood lust on the big guy.

For Cyanide. A new neg trait or a 'used in place' neg trait were a definite no no. So even if we wanted it, it wouldn't happen.

I think something like instability is the niche for this roster. Or more precise demons in blood bowl. It adds something new (or rediscovered as 4th ed demons had it (one of the few redeeming features of the 4th ed demon lists). I'll readily admit that I'm not using instability on my other demon lists though, but with a distinct demon neg trait, I probably would.

So what I'm trying to say is........I don't think a neg trait is mandatory however it adds something new and tidies up the use of demons in BB. Also on Table Top it's so easy to add. And if TT add it, the clients will be forced to do so too!

As for Khorne and mutating. Well for me they feel like they mutate less than the other Chaos relgions, but Darkson is right; bar Tzeentch they're comparable. I guess if you look at feel of the armies, there are less distinct mutations on Khorne. I'm being fickle, but I'm either way on that issue.

So I guess my main changes would be:

Drop the herald......replace him with a Khorngor if you wish.
Letters ST4 AV8 (and add frenzy, take away A access).
Thirster dropped/replaced or added Strength (ST5 to ST6 isn't such a massive boost for big guys).
Linemen tidied up; change of name, change of skill access.

It'd become more of a 2 tier roster like Lizards and vamps, but 2 tiers like these play really well.

[Gaixo]

CHAOS (exact same as current Chaos Pact, save 0-16 Marauders)
0-16 Marauders 50,000 GSPM A
0-1 Goblin Renegade 40,000 AM GSP
0-1 Skaven Renegade 50,000 GM ASP
0-1 Dark Elf Renegade 70,000 GAM SP
0-1 Chaos Troll 110,000 S GAPM
0-1 Chaos Ogre 140,000 S GAPM
0-1 Minotaur 150,000 S GAPM

BEASTS OF CHAOS
0-16 Beastmen 60,000 GS APM (note the change)
0-4 Herdlords (or whatever) GS APM (renamed Khorne Heralds with M access on doubles)
0-1 Chaos Minotaur 150,000 SM GAP

KHORNE
0-16 Pit Fighters 50,000 GP AS
0-4 Bloodletters 80,000 GAS P (could see leaving these out altogether if the team seems too well-rounded)
0-4 Champions of Khorne 100,000 GSM AP (renamed Chaos Warriors)
0-1 Bloodthirster 180,000 S GAP

Still the best solution! The only issue being that Khorne would probably need to be toned down a bit. I would suggest 0-2 Bloodletters and switching a Chaos minotaur in for the Bloodthirster.

[harvestmouse]

I'm guessing the stats remain the same as you haven't listed them?

So what does this list fix exactly? Nobody is complaining about how the Cyanide list plays; I'm pretty sure it's a fun roster on the weak side. Mechanic wise there is no need to touch it what so ever. Giving the Letters S access does fix things a little bit, but the reason they didn't was to avoid a certain combo.....which is kinda futile.

The problem some/we have is with the describing and portrayal. If you don't have a problem with those, then you really don't have a problem with the roster.

[Gaixo]

Bloodletters do have access to S skills. They are unchanged.

I'm unsure of quite how to take your question. This proposal takes both of the rosters that people are complaining about and transfers the stopping power of the Chaos roster to the Khorne roster, thus ending one of the chief complaints ("Chaos is way more killy than Khorne!"). Isn't that what you mean by "describing/portrayal?"

It also removes easy access to the killer combo by changing Beasts' access to mutations on double rolls only. With the real Chaos list around (which is what Pact is, obviously), there's already a team with widespread mutation access, so there's no reason to give a ton of it to the Beasts or Khorne.

Chaos Pact get their real name back; Khorne becomes the killingest team around (as I said, they'd probably still need some moderate nerfing); Beasts become a fun mid-tier fringe team like they always should have been.

[harvestmouse]

Ok my mistake on the S access. The access is so way out there, it's difficult to remember who has what.....but the rest is a no....

The Letters (and Heralds) are most certainly the major problem with the roster....they just aren't Blood Letters..

"This proposal takes both of the rosters that people are complaining about and transfers the stopping power of the Chaos roster to the Khorne roster, thus ending one of the chief complaints ("Chaos is way more killy than Khorne!")."

This is only part of the complaint; that chaos is more killy than Khorne. The main issue is that the positions do not portray the beasts. It's a joint issue.

"Isn't that what you mean by "describing/portrayal?"

No on both accounts. Portrayal is about making a beast how it's portrayed. In this case we are taking Warhammer creatures (Blood Letters/Thirsters) and portraying them much weaker than they were originally envisaged/figure portrayal.

Describing is what is described by neoliminal the ex head of the BBRC. It's very easy to attach skills to a player and make it a fun roster. However why would that player have those skills? Adding a skill to a player must meet the fluff requirements. For instance a standard human has a 6 3 3 8 profile and no skills. So to add skills you need a good fluff reason to do so. I think Khorne players being crazy for blood and frenzy works, but everything else needs to be legitimate and not oversubscribed. This is a far too common problem.

Portray you beast as it should be described, not as how it would work best on the BB field. Once you deviate and start working on what would be fun. Then you weaken the world they come from and it's portrayal. Ok with this roster the weakening is subtle. However a line must be drawn, and my line is right at the start.

"It also removes easy access to the killer combo by changing Beasts' access to mutations on double rolls only."

Again, the problem shouldn't be with the roster but the rules. If there is a problem, fix it, don't band aid a roster. There's already so much CPOMB out there that adding another team that can gain it makes no difference. You have a leaky roof, fix the roof, there are only so many buckets available.


"With the real Chaos list around (which is what Pact is, obviously), there's already a team with widespread mutation access, so there's no reason to give a ton of it to the Beasts or Khorne."

No, you really don't get it. Pact is a translation of the Chaos Allstars. The Chaos Allstars were the ultimate Chaos team that could do it all. Pass, run, bash. They had throwers, mutants and blitzer players. This is why the Marauders have all this access. The REAL chaos list is the chaos list. Pact team portrays a lrb 6 version of the Chaos Allstars, which is does very well..........bar the combo and TV problems.

Mutations aren't big either way. S access is much more pivotal. No reason to give Khorne mutation access? Well how are they portrayed. Personally, I'm not that bothered on it. My feeling is they aren't the kings of mutations. However as Darkson said, they're no less than Nurgle or Slaanesh.

I don't wish to come across like a douche, I like your passion. However you aren't addressing the complaints. It's a lot more than roster feel.

[spubbbba]

I would've liked Khorne to be the supreme killer in bloodbowl but really hard to control.

Keep all players having frenzy but make the bloodletters ST4 but and wild animal. Maybe throw in some loner as well, something that makes them have the most potential for damage but very hard to control. Kind of like goblin secret weapons, sometimes they devastate the other team and other times they spectacularly fail or are more of a danger to their team-mates.

[harvestmouse]

In your experience spubbba wouldn't across the board frenzy do that? I know I've played with 5 frenzy on a Norse team and found it too much. I've played Khorne rosters with across the board frenzy, and it becomes a neg trait.

Personally I think across the board frenzy makes winning difficult. Win percentage wise it'd negate what added ST and added access would add. Of course cas wise they'd be more potent, but that's Khorne and that's the fundamental problem.

[spubbbba]

Frenzy on ST3 is a liability, particularly without block. But with ST4 and taking block 1st skill then all the extra hits would be pretty powerful.

I really just want more tier 2 and 3 teams so would like them to be at that level, kind of like vamps. ST4 and AG4 along with hypno gaze make them awesome but bloodlust is such a massive liability they are one of the weaker teams in the game. So if khorne could be similar then I think that would be fun.

I don't think the cyanide khorne team are too powerful or anything, just not very interesting. There isn't enough to make them stand out from norse, pact or normal chaos. They are fine just a bit "meh" to me. The pit fighters are not very interesting and the bloodletters are too focused on their appearance, so get stuck with horns despite those horns not being the type suitable to gore or ram opposing players.

[Gaixo]

No on both accounts. Portrayal is about making a beast how it's portrayed. In this case we are taking Warhammer creatures (Blood Letters/Thirsters) and portraying them much weaker than they were originally envisaged/figure portrayal.

Yeah, this is why I would really prefer to take the Bloodthirster out altogether. (The proposal above isn't mine, but I only noted that on my previous posting of it.) Or even better, just make a Star Player version. As noted very recently in this thread, A Bloodthirster's ST should be in the Deathroller category at the very least if you're really trying to emulate the Warhammer version. Bloodletters are trickier; they'd probably need to be renamed and largely redesigned.

"It also removes easy access to the killer combo by changing Beasts' access to mutations on double rolls only."
Again, the problem shouldn't be with the roster but the rules. If there is a problem, fix it, don't band aid a roster. There's already so much CPOMB out there that adding another team that can gain it makes no difference. You have a leaky roof, fix the roof, there are only so many buckets available.

I believe that proliferation is the main issue with CPOMB and that the combo is important to prevent high AV teams from becoming overly dominant at high TV. If the types of players who can get it are reduced, the problem is largely mitigated. We obviously differ on this point, though. I don't play in environments in which teams play hundreds of games and players are constantly "rerolled," though; I'm sure this explains some of our differing opinions.

"With the real Chaos list around (which is what Pact is, obviously), there's already a team with widespread mutation access, so there's no reason to give a ton of it to the Beasts or Khorne."

No, you really don't get it. Pact is a translation of the Chaos Allstars. The Chaos Allstars were the ultimate Chaos team that could do it all. Pass, run, bash. They had throwers, mutants and blitzer players. This is why the Marauders have all this access. The REAL chaos list is the chaos list. Pact team portrays a lrb 6 version of the Chaos Allstars, which is does very well..........bar the combo and TV problems.

If there's one thing I get, it's this. Blood Bowl is only stuck with beastman teams because the game was relaunched during a moment in which GW were trying to sell Warhammer beastmen as the main Chaos force. This differs from previous portrayals in both Warhammer and Blood Bowl and is why I've never played 3rd/LRB Chaos, except for once when I petitioned to play in the OLBBL with "Marauders" (beastmen without horns). You're not the only one allowed to have strong opinions about a team's core concept.

[connexion]

The problem some/we have is with the describing and portrayal. If you don't have a problem with those, then you really don't have a problem with the roster.

It's the old adage, "a rise by any other name would still be a rose", but in reverse...

Since the fluff/setting/context is only marginally of interest to me game-wise (and even less so to the few people that play on my PXC-96 league), the" Khorne" roster is perfectly playable and fine enough as it is.

[Chris]

CHAOS (exact same as current Chaos Pact, save 0-16 Marauders)
BEASTS OF CHAOS
KHORNE
0-16 Pit Fighters 50,000 GP AS
etc

I remain of the opinion that the current chaos team is the khorne team. It just needs star player changes. Slap the demons in as star players (with skills) and with secret weapon to represent instability and you are away.

Then end up with
Undivided - pact
Khorne - Chaos team, drop Brick and Grashnak for a bloodletter and a bloodthirster.
Nurgle - As is, though I would again drop stars for demons
Slanesh - Many options, I like the one with a few elves in it
Tzentch - a team where you can start with all the mutations spread over the players and perhaps some magic (I like this viewtopic.php?p=725980#p725980 )

[harvestmouse]

A nice post Gaixo:

Re the Blood Thirster: I don't think I'm in a position to argue either way. I want realistic stats, but I want to keep it. Maybe I can't have both. ST over 5 isn't that much of a bonus, in my opinion. Certainly not as game changing as any increases up to 5.

Yeah probably they should be 7, and I don't think it's that big a difference over 6. Yet the strongest creatures are 6....

6, 7, removed, star player? All viable for me, which maybe a contradiction.

Re CPOMB: The problem is it's already prolific. Shutting the barn door after the heavy hitting mutant has strolled out with his beastman buddy does little. If you gave the linos mutations on doubles only then there would be a little less. There is no reason to give demons mutations, in fact I don't think they should have them at all.

So automatically this is less of a CPOMB roster than Nurgs, Chaos and Pact. The combo is simply broken, but I guess you're right about proliferation. I'm kind of not anti it in small doses where it gives a leg up to unpopular players (big guys for example). I think it'd be pretty cool if the Rogres and Minos were the only ones running around with it, but across the board it's been very damaging to the game at high TV.

You're not the only one allowed to have strong opinions about a team's core concept.

Agreed, thank you for reminding me.

Re Connexion

Well if you all feel that way, you guys should definitely be playing with them! They've been well play tested in an official(ish) environment and can be a lot of fun. You certainly shouldn't be allowing guys like me dictate what your group does because of issues that don't concern you. However in return of course, I don't want to be dictated too either and have them become an official NAF roster. I think there's potentially a lot of cool looking TT teams.

Chris

Secret Weapon for Instability, that's interesting and hadn't occurred to me. Food for thought.

My thought is also that Tzeentch could have an on the field spell caster. I think if a team has an auto spell caster (which is extremely strong), they should be on the field and if removed you may not cast the spell, rather than having it automatically.

Mutations wise I think mutations on regular rolls, and the old mutation table on doubles. I'm playing a couple of rosters like this, but they aren't rolling enough doubles for me to comment much about it.

[plasmoid]

Hi Again Harvestmouse,
like you - I have to say ST3 Letters really bother me. Then Again, ST4 Letters will probably make it feel like 'not the same team'.
Secret Weapon is not a bad match for instability, actually.
That said, I got to thinking.

OK, the linemen keep G access. S too. Perhaps even M on doubles only. M was probably only kept off to avoid having to do the extra Graphics anyway.
But with access to Guard on everyone, Frenzy does become less of a liability.

So I'm thinking the Letters have to be seriously gimped. But with fluffy stats. Dangerous to everyone. That got me to thinking: Non-G that I suggested for the linemen. That could Work for the letters! Combine that with Loner, and you have a lethal turnover machine! They'd be like 4 mini big Guys.

0-16 Linemen 6338 Frenzy GS(M)
0-2 Khorngor 6338 Frenzy, Horns, Juggernaut. GS(M)
0-4 Bloodletters 6438 Frenzy, MB, Regen, Loner. S
0-1 Herald 6519 Frenzy, Claw, Regen, Jugger, Wild Animal, Loner S

(As for the Thirster - it could never have appropriate stats. 7 is a lot, and still doesn't represent what a Bloodthirster is. I think it is rename or cut. I know you don't like the hero title, but IMO Herald is a best fit for the statline).

Cheers
Martin