New Agility Skill

[Darkson]

BREAK FALL: This player has learnt how to fall correctly, lesserning the impact from crashing to the ground.

Works basically as a reverse Mighty Blow, in that the player can subtract -1 from either the AV roll or the INJ roll. This can be used against Blocks, failed Dodges/GFI but not on Fouls.


Now I wait for the howls of derision

[wesleytj]

my only problem is that it will create all kinds of confusion as to which takes precedence when your opponent has mighty blow...i guess if you tie the av roll naturally then they'd cancel...?

...and since it's all about falling i can assume it has no effect on fouling av/inj rolls?

[Darkson]

but not on Fouls.

And yeah, MB and BF would cancel out.

[wesleytj]

hey ya know generally i'm resistant to adding new stuff but I think since the 3rd ed skills were divided into skills and traits, we could use a few more skills here and there....break fall and stiff arm might be good options.

both are reasonably simple, neither seem too broken, maybe some playtesting...? I guess galak is playtesting stiff arm (not exactly the version i said but still), any of you crazy experimental leauges wanna bite on break fall?

[Skummy]

That's the problem with experimental leagues though, isn't it? I mean, if you have two experimental teams playing against each other, you don't exactly have a baseline to compare the stats to. Ideally, you'd want to add one of the skills to a league that plays with regular rules and see if it becomes an unbalancing factor.

[Icedman]

hey ya know generally i'm resistant to adding new stuff but I think since the 3rd ed skills were divided into skills and traits, we could use a few more skills here and there....break fall and stiff arm might be good options.

both are reasonably simple, neither seem too broken, maybe some playtesting...? I guess galak is playtesting stiff arm (not exactly the version i said but still), any of you crazy experimental leauges wanna bite on break fall?

That's the problem with experimental leagues though, isn't it? I mean, if you have two experimental teams playing against each other, you don't exactly have a baseline to compare the stats to. Ideally, you'd want to add one of the skills to a league that plays with regular rules and see if it becomes an unbalancing factor.

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to adding new stuff in too, but unlike Stiff Arm, this one doesn't immediately ring alarm bells for me. Yes, the HElf I've just knocked down cancels out my MB, but he is down!

[Mestari]

I guess this would be another quite widely used skill.
The wardancer could now, in addition to having ST4 against blitzing from stiff arm, get a de facto AV of 8, or in the case it goes through anyhow they could drop their injury rate to half of what it was. KO rate to 7/9 of what it was.

Due to the weakened nature of bashing skills, I'm pretty much against skills that clearly make players negate even that slight effect.

[Piepgrass]

How about maiking it a skill that protects yuo when failling dodges, leap and gfi.
Then let it have -1 on both av ind injury.

This way people aint protected against being hit.

[Zombie]

Do you realize that this skill would be about twice as good as +1AV? That's way too powerful! Also, as was said before, the problem would arise with determining precedence.

[wesleytj]

I guess this would be another quite widely used skill.
The wardancer could now, in addition to having ST4 against blitzing from stiff arm, get a de facto AV of 8, or in the case it goes through anyhow they could drop their injury rate to half of what it was. KO rate to 7/9 of what it was.

Due to the weakened nature of bashing skills, I'm pretty much against skills that clearly make players negate even that slight effect.

Well I have a few things to say about that:

First, it's not wise to use the Wardancer as the example. He's the best and most expensive player in the game. Just about everything will seem broken on him. "OOh Think about Shadow...he could follow people all over the field and they just have to keep dodging and dodging. And if you take tackle then they'll never get away!" Does that make shadow overpowered? Few people take it...I would say it's ok.

Second, yes it's a useful skill. But so are Block, dodge, tackle, etc etc... the point is to have valid alternatives that make you stop and think before you just slap on the standard skill. Yeah the Wardancer would want to take Stiff Arm Most Likely. He'd also want Break Fall if we added that. Then there's that nasty Tackle/Shadow Combination I mentioned. Then there's stuff like duantless and mighty blow if he rolls doubles. Oooh and side step is good, keeps you from getting hit too much. And Pro is good for rerolling leaps and stuff when out of team rrs...

Get my point? You can't possibly hope to take all of that. And this is a player that STARTS with 3 very useful skills...best player in the game. An average Lineelf will still most likely only get to blk and dodge.

If you take too many skills to protect yourself, before long you realize the player doesn't actually DO anything. "Yeah this is my block, dodge, sidestep, regenerate, spikes, break fall, stiff arm gutter runner" Probably the safest guy in the world, but what is it he actually does? After 6 skills you'd expect the guy to be able to single-handedly win the game for you... all this guy does is not die.

[Fronko]

Yeah, he doesn't die, and after that he runs 9 squares across the pitch with the ball and again is the safest guy on the field, and now about 9 squares away from the opposition. Don't sound very useless to me.

[Skummy]

Wesleytj: First, it's not wise to use the Wardancer as the example. He's the best and most expensive player in the game.

I couldn't disagree with this statement more. It's like saying that LRB Piling On isn't broken without a Mummy. You have to look at how these skills will effect the best players in the world. The Wardancer isn't even the worst example. Do people really want to see Elven blitzers gain an effective 9 armor with only one skill? It would greatly devalue Orc Blitzers, that's for sure.

Also, Gutter Runners can't get Regenerate any more (more's the pity.) Sub that out on your list for Diving Tackle, and you've got one hell of a player.

[Zombie]

Like i said, it's much better than +1 AV. Actually, it's about as good as +2 AV. For those who don't see why, here it is.

The new mighty blow (+1 on armour or injury) is almost as good as the old mighty blow (+1 on armour and injury). We've all seen that with experience. Therefore, break fall (-1 on armour or injury) would be almost as good as if it were +1 on armour and injury. Since the injury part is the most important, "almost as good" becomes "just as good" if we just replace the -1 on injury with something a little bit weaker, i.e. -1 on armour. Therefore you can change the or for an and, and the injury part for another armour part, and keep the power the same. This means that this skill is about equivalent in power with +2 AV.

That's so grossely overpowered for a single skill, it's not even funny. For example, spike only gives +1 to AV, and is only available on a double, and only for skaven, chaos, rat ogres and minotaurs, all of whom have many other great choices available on a double, which compensates for the fact that spike is pretty good.


The other point raised that there already isn't enough violence and attrition in the game as is, is also quite valid.

[Mestari]

Get my point?

I think that point was shot down by the posters above already, but still:

Wardancer and the like are the best examples. They usually gain skills quickly. They are also main targets. Cutting the chances of them being injured as tremendously as this skill does is not a good thing. They are a lot more likely to see their seventh skill if they take this one.

They are the problem players, just like mummies with POn, as was stated previously.