Cyanide... a new card system?

[Darkson]

And how many Fumbbl players were (are?) TT players? If the only way the majority can/do play is online, and the online version isn't able to playtest the rules, then it's hardly surprising that most didn't join in with playtesting.

[sann0638]

Well, there seems to have been a mini-rush of Fumbblers joining TFF recently!

[VoodooMike]

I hate to say it, but really the fumbbl community were not behind LRB 5 (Vault) ideas and they never playtested the work. Waldorfs idea wont work even if it happens. Essentially no playtesting came from that community and maybe divided tabletop from computer players forever.

FUMBBL doesn't inherently get behind anything that they didn't come up with themselves. While I understand they imagine themselves to be a very open-minded and cosmopolitan community, they're quite a bit closer to the island in Lord of the Flies. That said, FUMBBL as a site responded quite dramatically to the introduction of Cyanide's version of Blood Bowl by playing catch-up with the rules.

The gist of what I'm saying is this: other than passively generating data which can be used for analysis, there's not a lot of use to be had on FUMBBL in the grand scheme of things. It has already proven it'll adjust its sails to catch whatever wind seems to be blowing BB players around on the net, so it doesn't come down to making players there agree, just on showing that NOT adopting new rules is losing them players, and they'd change (again).

LRB 7 is something I would be keen to work on. However stepping back I think is harder now than it was before. (feel free to post data that disproves this but I think even the trolls will struggle to prove me wrong).

Two things about this. First off, unless I can cut into your skull there's no real way to disprove what you think (you could say you doubt that I could even then, but hey, we'd have to cut into your skull to verify, right?) - the idea of what is hard or easy is purely subjective. Second, people don't need to DISprove random beliefs - that's not how logic works. The burdon of proof, or at least of logical support, falls to the person who is making a new assertion. If we were discussing the objective difficulty, rather than what you think about it, that would mean it's on you to prove your point, not on other people to disprove it.

Indead they did not have the lrb vault coded but could of given comment. You know this. We typically played a few games and must have posted about every idea before during and after. Every community could of had input and I am arguing some did not.

If all that community could offer was personal opinions rather than extensive play-testing, why would the BBRC have cared? I mean, what makes a FUMBBL user's untested opinion better than a BBRC member's own opinion? While I personally feel things should be data driven, when they're not (as with LRB changes thus far) it doesn't much matter which gut feeling they go with, and everyone (the BBRC included) feel their guts are the best compass.

[garion]

No darkson that is not the entire truth. We all speculated and suggested ideas which were play tested. These discussions had almost no voice from fumbbl players. Indead they did not have the lrb vault coded but could of given comment. You know this. We typically played a few games and must have posted about every idea before during and after. Every community could of had input and I am arguing some did not.

I assume most simply did not care and many were hostile to change. I would argue the forgotten past was already a step in the direction we now find ourselves in. Not a lot has changed really

Not true. Many fumbbl coaches spoke out about some of the proposed changes. Flix had a thread in which he pleaded for galak to make Pile On weaker a long time before the cpomb threads started popping up everywhere every day. He was basically told to stop being a baby and that the game blood bowl argument. There are many other examples of people disagreeing with changes. I'm pretty sure I remember darkson being less than happy that ramtut got given wrestle instead of block as well. Many of these issues were just completely ignored by galak because he did what HE wanted more often than not, and time and time again he has shown he does not respond well to constructive criticism.

I'm not saying his job is easy because with blood bowl you have to listen to complete noob coaches voicing their opinion all the time a lot of which are clueless as to how some of their suggestions would actually effect the game as a whole, but should fumbbl have been approached by the bbrc ? Most definitely, in fact 2 of the ex BBRC have told me in person that they think they made a mistake ignoring that community because of the vast amount of experience that is available there. But then Galak had his orders from JJ to make the game for TT only and ignore online and although I'm personally not a fan of CRP it works perfectly well on the TT scene because the average league length doesn't expose many of the rule sets biggest flaws.

[GalakStarscraper]

Many of these issues were just completely ignored by galak because he did what HE wanted more often than not, and time and time again he has shown he does not respond well to constructive criticism.

Really? I seem to remember going out of my way to discuss the rules with the people that were the most upset and adjusting several rules from those discussions. I'm not sure where you get the last part of that sentence from ... but I think you are talking about someone else.

As for the Piling On situation. When you did the raw stats, it was still a lesser effect than many of the injury combos of the past. I have said many times that based on what we know now, I would do the skills differently. History has a funny way of trying to re-write itself. At that time, Flix was saying what he was and I commend him for it. He was right which is a great thing to see in hindsight (as there were several other things discussed as problems that never became problems ... great thing about hindsight is it is only rolled out when it was correct). The reason Flix's thread was not put into action was pretty straightforward. There was already a big ground swell that said the game was being changed to be too soft. The loss of Razor Sharp Claws and the addition Journeymen had the majority of players of the belief the game was not going to be brutal enough. Add to this that the tabletop leagues doing the playtesting where not identifying any issues. We had the majority of the stats, community opinion and playtesting showing everything was checking out. And as you said ... JJ made it very clear that the rules were to be developed to work at TT level. He was not concerned about online play.

Garion you have been vocal for a long time about how much you think I suck. I get that. But I can say without any hesitation that I did not ignore any discussion at that time and definitely did not ram down rules that were not supported and playtested (JJ is guilty of that unfortunately but I confident it is not a statement that works when laid at my doorstep). (and by supported ... I mean majority supported ... not universally supported) At the end of the day ... not a single rule in the rulebook was put there by me alone. Everything I did JJ required to be voted on by the BBRC and had to pass unanimously during that final year of work to be included. And like it or not, some of the issues you have with me are not really issues you have with me but the fact that JJ had strict rules (and he enforced them) on how the testing and rules were to be changed during the work.

It was 3000 hours over 2 years of work. There was no way to run it via committee. I fully accept that I picked up folks like you Garion as a result. There was no way not to and have the project be successful. But I don't think you'll find many people that were actually involved in the process at the time that share your opinion of how I handled it.

[garion]

I don't want to argue but just to clear a few things up there. First of all I already said in my post that JJ gave instructions for the rules to be written for TT and no for online, and I also said for TT CRP works perfectly well (even if not to my personal taste, traits ageing and so on) and that's fine and commendable especially with ageing gone as most people disliked it so fair enough. I also understand the need for attrition to happen on the pitch I just think it works in the wrong way, too much coming from PO basically. In fact I wrote something not so long ago about how PO only really needs a very minor nerf (the original one you proposed no stack on po works perfectly, plus I use claw is -2 to min of 7 so trees cope a little more) but attrition would have to come from other sources (fouling, surfing, and limiting access not through traits but through skill access eg. M on doubles for pestigors and beastmen, S access on doubles for marauders). I am also of the opinion that there isn't enough attrition at low TV in this edition compared to LRB4 (there were numbers for this I think koadah had/has them). The reason I want attrition increased at lower tv are two fold. First of all to make it harder for people to develop teams exactly as they want forming powerful skill stack players; CPOMB or Blodge SS DT etc.. while too many of the team are rookies. Again solved by improved fouling, and disallowing apo or regen use on crowd surfs. Secondly to help keep everyone's tv down in the tv brackets where the game functions as intended basically between 1200 and 2000.

Also I don't have a problem with you personally. I think some of the stuff you did for the game is great, I used to read the articles you wrote in fanatic and BB magazine long before I had the internet and knew this site existed, in fact I still far prefer the original Titchy rule you wrote in the snotling team article in fanatic I think it was (memory a bit shaky here) it should never have been changed.

All that said I did and still do think there were a number of things dealt with very poorly during LRB5 and CRP.

Starting with LRB5 it looked from the outside looking in as though there was too much control given to one person, that person just happens to be you. Obviously its not your fault the other BBRC memebers had to leave you too it at the time for various reasons, DS - family, Neo - burnout and so on. But during this period you were the sole writer of the rules. Also worth saying I am glad you carried on because if my memory is correct JJ was willing to release the rules half finished at this point but you persuaded him to let you carry on alone till they were finished.

Then there were a number of changes that I personally hate and that there was opposition to such as Pile On which fair enough you concede now is problematic. I also guess it must be tricky for you as many of the play testers probably were saying its fine, though this is where the experience of Fumbbl coaches would have come in much more useful because that standard of coaching and knowledge of coaching in the PBeM arena was IMO very very poor in a lot of cases, although some were very good too.

There were also too many minor changes made that older coaches really didn't like, such as the aforementioned Block on Ramtut issue, and there is still a thread on MBBL I think it is where people were disagreeing with this change, Darksons name springs to mind the most for some reason, but he was ignored. There were many more small changes to the stars like this that I and many other considered sacrilege and just an abandonment of the fluff. Another good example of this is Underworld where the existing cannon stated that the only Goblin star player that would play for them was Scrappa, but this was completely ignored and bomber got stuck in instead, sure its not major but its just more that detracts from the finished product.

Other changes I really did not like is obviously Khemri, I actually prefer the team now, though why Decay was added will always be a mystery to me, that was a crazy bad move. I also was dismayed that you wanted rid of Khemri all together, which would have been terrible for the game imo. But with Khemri I understand that no one could really come to an agreement of how that roster should look.

The removal of the troll from cds and optional big guys from other teams was another very poor move. Limiting coaches options to build teams in the way they want.

Then there are stunty teams, Ogre roster is just beyond a joke so there is no point going there, but god knows what you guys were smoking when you ruined that roster. Goblin roster was improved in that Secret Weapon players were added in the roster which everyone wanted for a long time. But because of the problems with inducements and Fan Factor severely handicapping you now there is an issue where it is impossible to build a team better than rookie goblins. Rookie goblins are far far better at handling high TV teams than anything you can hope to build which is just wrong, give them morg, ripper, wiz and 3 bribes and that's the best they can get. This should never be the case a built up team should always be the aim of playing with a race.

Luckily this isn't the case with flings (my favourite race) so much because they can still maintain a fairly low TV for how good some of their players can get, that said when playing with flings a lot of the time you are really playing with another team, no longer are you using 2 treemen instead more often than not you are using Deeproot as well, and morg sometimes, sometimes a wizard as well. a good example here - https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=735585 the point is its not really playing with flings any more instead you are playing with a star player monster mash team.

Then there is inducements and the TV system which are the two biggest problems for me, we now have a system where in certain match ups being a TV underdog is actually advantageous such as... say 1400 TV lizardmen vs 1800 tv orcs or nurgle for example, lizardmen get slibli and wizard, game is massively stacked in lizardmens favour. Or say elves vs any bash teams if they are 150 tv down wizard gives them far too big an advantage. Then there is TV which has led to the game being about Tv management not team building because the inducements are too good at equalising in many occasions, as said - too often (not always) giving tv underdog the advantage which for me should never be possible, as you say - it should give them a 1 in 3 chance of winning. Also before you say it, I did not play with Av9 teams in lrb4 and I agreed they needed bringing down a peg or two, it was just handled poorly and too many things were changed even though there was no problem there in the first place.

Anyway, I have rambled on enough, the point is I don't like the final product for many reasons though its still blood bowl so still a good game. From where I am looking and everything I have read it has always seemed to me that you don't respond well to criticism unless coming from inside you clique.

p.s. comparing CPOMB to claw RSC is a ridiculous statement because the later you had to survive ageing and get 2 doubles to achieve it and there in lies the problem and something that any experienced fumbbl coach would have told you had some experienced members been approached such as flix.

Anyway, back to the thread, Cyanide will do what it wants to make sales, that's all they care about, not the game, once they have stopped making money and once they have driven away the core fan base from their game they will jump ship, lets all be thankful for the NAF who will continue to promote TT tournaments and fumbbl for giving us a place to play the official rules in their full, online, for free, which is all Christer (fumbbls owner) has ever wanted.

[GalakStarscraper]

I do understand your points. I did my best to go to other forums and invite folks to TFF to discuss and to regularly go to other forums to try to read what was being posted. The other issue with the FUMBBL feedback was that JJ flat out required us to take almost all feedback from folks actually playing the rules. So while FUMBBL had a lot of experience, they were speaking from theory and experience and not actual playing so JJ said the opinion was not one he weighted much at all.

As for being the only rule writer. Yes I was for a long time because the outright vitrol on the forums drove all the other people working on the project away if their personal lives did not do it. So some of what you see when you think I cannot handle critics is that I was able to stay with the project until it was over because I can take it and part of that is I'm okay with giving it back if I think it is called for. Heck at one point on FUMBBL Garion during the rules work someone post that they hoped I was murdered and eaten by pigs ... cannot say I blame everyone else on the BBRC from leaving the project (and I would ask you to be honest ... if that was the type of posts you got from a site ... would you spend a bunch of time there when they were not playtesters if you were on the developer side???). And yes JJ was at my house for dinner as he was a speaker at Gen Con and he said "I'm happy the rules they are okay to be official right now unless you are willing to handle the entire project by yourself as I have new commitments at GW that required my attention and Ian (doubleskulls) can no longer assist." That was almost 18 months before the final rulebook was published and definitely as you said ... the game would have been much worse without that.

At the end of the day ... I look at this for all my work and the work of the playtesters: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/ ... g-rulebook

Does it have spots that could be improved still ... hell yes. But it is still rated the 83th best board game of all time. I'm glad I could do what I could to help get it there.

As for Cyanide ... you'll be happy to know I was so busy with Impact! that I had to turn down their request to help with making the rules for the new version of the game. So the current version they come up with was Galak free.

Galak

[garion]

Heck at one point on FUMBBL during the rules work someone post that they hoped I was murdered and eaten by pigs ... cannot say I blame everyone else on the BBRC from leaving the project (and I would ask you to be honest ... if that was the type of posts you got from a site ... would you spend a bunch of time there when they were not playtesters if you were on the developer side???
As for Cyanide ... you'll be happy to know I was so busy with Impact! that I had to turn down their request to help with making the rules for the new version of the game. So the current version they come up with was Galak free.

Yeah well that's just sick and embarrassing, hopefully said person was swiftly booted off fumbbl. I get your point, it is a tricky one really, one of the problems is many of the people that could give the best input would shy away from such responsibility as well.

Ho hum, all done and dusted for the time anyway really.

I will be interested to see what cyanide come up with rules wise but I dread it more than anything else, their Khorne roster restrictions were a clear indication to me that they have zero idea what they are actually dealing with here, as does their inability to actually get the first game right after 4 versions. But I guess stranger things have happened.

Also as much as I dislike a lot of your ideas for the rules that you wanted to look at if you were doing it again (bank , Khemri removal amongst others) at least you were approaching the design philosophy as someone that loves the game and wanted the best for it and nothing more than that, the problem with cyanide is they will do whatever they thing will help them shift units, give it a couple of years and we will probably see a Blood Bowl Space Marines edition coming out Its really a worrying time tbh and could signal a big split in TT and online play, I guess it really depends where GW positions its self in all this, I guess the best thing they could do while cyanide exists is continue to completely ignore it.

[GalakStarscraper]

On that Garion ... you and I fully agree. Cyanide having the reigns with the development of the "rules" is not a bit of a concerning thing if it ever spreads beyond the Cyanide game.

The hamstrings with the Khorne team were a good example. Team had to be built to match the graphics instead of the other way around.

And to be clear ... the remove Khemri from the game is a long ago thing. I fought really hard for the Break Tackle, AV 8 version at either 110k or 120k ... lost that battle in the final BBRC vote.

And yeah ... I do still like the bank.

Would like to see the Slann Blitzers go down 10k in price as well. And I would really like to fix Piling On so that no modifiers or skills can be used on a re-roll caused by it (and possibly making it so that you have to announce its use before you even roll the first armour roll (which would then allow you then to reroll either the armor or injury your choice but you still have to go prone even if you do not reroll either)). And I would love to see serious playtest data for Stunty stopping Tackle from convert Pow! to Pow. Would like to Sneaky Git improved as well ... always liked the idea of it acting like Guard for Fouls in addition to what it already does. Finally in terms of rules simplification ... would be okay with the Igor going bye bye and just allowing the Apothecary to not have an exception for being allowed for any team and any player.

Ah well ... musing out loud.

[garion]

And to be clear ... the remove Khemri from the game is a long ago thing. I fought really hard for the Break Tackle, AV 8 version at either 110k or 120k ... lost that battle in the final BBRC vote.

Yeah I hate the av8 break tackle thing. glad it got vetoed.

Starting with BT they completely lose their identity. They're hardly Khemri anymore. The trick for CRP Khemri is precise positioning (a lost art). You must get it right the first time, because you won't be dodging around. It's tough but do-able, to keep this house of cards upright. AV9 is important in this effort - lose a Guardian and your job is twice as hard.

Khemri are a really good team. Just give Blitz Ras thick skull, and remove decay. Done. Khemri have a place in the game and they should stay, positioning is everything and that is the fun of the roster.

And yeah ... I do still like the bank.

I get the idea, but this just forces the ridiculous practice of cash dumping which should never occur. You could achieve a similar goal with a different idea. Bank is counter intuitive and when I have tested the rule it hurt vamps more than anyone which is the last thing you need.

Would like to see the Slann Blitzers go down 10k in price as well. And I would really like to fix Piling On so that no modifiers or skills can be used on a re-roll caused by it (and possibly making it so that you have to announce its use before you even roll the first armour roll (which would then allow you then to reroll either the armor or injury your choice but you still have to go prone even if you do not reroll either)).

agree with the first part, no need for the latter it makes the skill description cluttered and it doesnt need to be made that much weaker. I use the no stack in 2 leagues already and it makes a huge difference.

And I would love to see serious playtest data for Stunty stopping Tackle from convert Pow! to Pow. Would like to Sneaky Git improved as well ... always liked the idea of it acting like Guard for Fouls in addition to what it already does. Finally in terms of rules simplification ... would be okay with the Igor going bye bye and just allowing the Apothecary to not have an exception for being allowed for any team and any player.

There is plenty of data for the right stuff change, this is used a fair bit on fumbbl. in Leagues it makes little difference stunty teams still get stomped. However the place where this proposed rule change would potentially be problematic is in resurrection TT tournaments, give a gobo or fling block as one of the skill picks and it could be really annoying. tbh I think the better version is tackle does not work against right stuff players when they are dodging.

SG working like Guard is still crap, no one takes it. In 10 seasons, each race represented once, approx 280 games there wasn't a single occurrence of someone taking it with that ruling.

Igor is fine no need to change that.

Another thing that needs removed is FF counting towards TV. All this does is cause people to retire teams and start again when their team gets destroyed. If it did not count towards TV then when a team gets butchered and they are reduced to a roster that basically looks like a starting roster then they can continue that team with all its history and so on without playing with a handicap, all it does now is help obtain 1 or 2 FAME anyway which is largely insignificant.

I understand that you wanted a cumulative increase in TV for how successful a team is but this would have been better achieving with cumulative TV increase with skills to something that looks like this - 20k 20k 30k 30k 40k 40k not saying exactly this but something along those lines. Which would at the same time solve the biggest problem in the whole of CRP which is stars and scrubs team building.

[dode74]

There is plenty of data for the right stuff change, this is used a fair bit on fumbbl.

Has anyone actually looked at the data, or is it simply "there"?

[Darkson]

At the end of the day, who cares? Apart from house ruling leagues it doesn't mean anything, and in the unlikely event GW ever decide to make BB again I fully expect they'll start a whole new addition, especially to "encourage" more models and power creep.

[babass]

Khemri are a really good team. Just give Blitz Ras thick skull, and remove decay. Done. Khemri have a place in the game and they should stay, positioning is everything and that is the fun of the roster.

+1

[MattDakka]

Khemri are a really good team. Just give Blitz Ras thick skull, and remove decay. Done. Khemri have a place in the game and they should stay, positioning is everything and that is the fun of the roster.

I agree but Thro-Ras should have Thick Skull as well.

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
late to the party, as always

Anyway - 2 things:
1) I originally liked the BT khemri version. OK, still do. But by now the CRP Khemri version has grown on the community, and I think the time for such a sweeping overhaul has passed.
I'd go with just dumping Decay, while adding Thick Skull to the throwers and blitzers (maling Them skeletons and making their price right.

2) Garion that thing about Tackle vs Gobbos in res tournaments? Looks a little like crazy talk.
In my res experience, tackle is not a popular skill pick. You get so few skills, and not all teams have dodge. Frenzy seems more popular for hitting catchers - perhaps because of the surf potential. And you'd likely have 1 such blodger.
When tackle is so rarely picked, a change to tackle Will have little impact. And we're talking about teams a long Way from Breaking even in the WDL department.
It might be - as you say - "annoying". That is hardly reason to worry.

Cheers
Martin