Cyanide... a new card system?

[Itchen Masack]

Having sensible NAF contact with Cyanide would surely be a thing of benefit to the Blood Bowl community? At the very least it couldn't hurt.

I don't see how its a benefit, frankly. The NAF has decided to go with the "If GW doesn't directly declare a change then it didn't happen" philosophy, so there's not much for Cyanide to gain from listening to anything they say since everything they say will be "no, don't do that". There's really no common ground to be had between purists and Cyanide and their desired community, so what's the point in there being a line of communication? Do you honestly think they'll just one day decide they were wrong and revert all their changes? The only rational possibility there is that the NAF changes ITS policy, and they don't seem interested in doing so. Thus, all is already as it should be.

Cyanide appear to have pointed out that all changes (apart form Bretonians possibly) from CRP are going to be optional in game. But for the parts that are staying CRP compliant, surely having the largest BB organization in contact with the people making the game could only help get the rules implemented correctly? Better to be talking positively in the beginning rather than just bitching at the end.
This is what I meant.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Any news on what the Bretonnian roster will be?

[lunchmoney]

Any news on what the Bretonnian roster will be?

I'm going to guess that no matter what it looks like people will not be happy. Even if they want a bret team it wont be the right one. I'm in the camp of "No bret team please, please make the other 24 correctly first. then do what you like."

[Itchen Masack]

Remove any team that has the word Dwarf in it then add whichever race you like. That'd make me happy

[VoodooMike]

Cyanide appear to have pointed out that all changes (apart form Bretonians possibly) from CRP are going to be optional in game.

That's not what I've read/heard from the various articles and interviews. It sounded, to me, like the majority of their changes will be the default, and that how optional they are in private leagues depends on how much time they have and how much effort they feel like spending. Given that their additions/changes will be default to their game, and that the default really is what will be played most (we can all talk smack about Nag and Auld, for example, but they're still much bigger than anything else) there's little reason for them to associate with any organization that actively resists those default features.

But for the parts that are staying CRP compliant, surely having the largest BB organization in contact with the people making the game could only help get the rules implemented correctly? Better to be talking positively in the beginning rather than just bitching at the end.

To what end? They know the rules - they have the same documents we do, and they actually have a license from GW to make BB-related products. You seem to be under the impression that the NAF is a superior authority on what constitutes "real" Blood Bowl than Cyanide, but the makers of BB have pretty much blown off the NAF, and have given an official license to Cyanide. The NAF is not in a position to help Cyanide, and helping/accepting Cyanide's work is not the position the NAF has chosen to take.

A more accurate thing to say would be that a serious relationship between Cyanide and NAF would benefit people who oppose any deviation from CRP + Slann,Pact,Underworld. While that is true, its based on the wishful thinking that it'd somehow convince Cyanide to bow to that camp's demands. From Cyanide's perspective, and the perspective of anyone who isn't in that philosophical camp, such a relationship can only be a hindrance.

[Itchen Masack]

Then I guess you see thing differently to the way I do The interviews I have seen, especially the one that resulted in the OP, have led me to believe that most of any changes will be optional.

[Gaixo]

You are right VM.

What will make things interesting is if Cyanide publish a GW and Jervis endorsed LRB7 with the game, which is wholly possible. The Khorne roster had ex-BBRC input but was still rejected by the NAF. Rules tweaks in BB2 will also benefit from that input, and will also most likely be rejected. Then the NAF will be in the same position as those poor old souls who still insist on playing LRB4. Bitter and anachronistic.

With the NAF's current intransigence, the game has ossified. There's a roadmap here for NAF approved innovation and improvement, but their stubbornness will most likely reject it and split the playerbase even more.

And yet as some have expressed above and elsewhere, change might be good if it arises from open minded dialogue. Sadly VM your assessment of the NAF's unwillingness to talk seems spot on.

However... I for one welcome our new LRB overlords. I guess it's just a matter of waiting to see which tablets come down from the mountain top when BB2 is released.

There will come a time when the NAF rues this missed opportunity.

Speaking of missed opportunities, the NAF election cycle finished only a month ago. I believe there was one fairly low-key question about online play (including both FUMBBL and Cyanide) during the presidential election.

Is there a reason why you didn't bring this up with the candidates? Or nominate someone who might share your views? I'm not trying to condescend to you; I really wonder why you wouldn't advance a position that you obviously feel so strongly about. This could be addressed to anyone who is critical of the NAF's position (or lack thereof) on adopting Cyanide's rule changes.

[Waldorf28]

I'll happily answer that question. At the time I couldn't give a shit about the NAF, and didn't see how it was relevant to the future of the game. I have now changed my mind.

Until recently the public face of the NAF has been that of an arrogant closed shop with its head firmly up its own arse. I was obliged to become a member to attend a TT tournament in my own town. It seems to many outside the organization to function like a protection racket, enforcing membership in order to attend tournaments. It also seems to cast itself as the guardian of Blood Bowl while simultaneously refusing to take the Cyanide version seriously and look down its nose on people who play primarily online as second class citizens.

The blame for this attitude is not solely the NAF's. It is a pretty accurate description of the prevailing culture here at TFF too. Fair enough, the many iterations of BB1 were far from perfect. I can see their point.

However the (perhaps unfortunate) truth is that Blood Bowl is bigger than the NAF now, which is clearly struggling to see outside its tournament circuit box. The NAF has an opportunity to redefine itself as a union representing all players, lobbying license holders on behalf of the entire player base. And it looks like that lobbying needs to start just about around now.

I appreciate that all sounds very negative regarding a volunteer run organisation, and I'm sure NAF execs past and present have done/will do their best. But doing their best is now going to have to encompass engaging with the new online implementations and ceasing to dismiss them as misguided or impure, since they almost certainly account for the majority of Blood Bowl games played in any given week.

I hope the NAF takes the opportunity to influence Cyanide's implementation of the rules, rather than choose to carp from the sidelines, because what I *do* give a shit about is the game of Blood Bowl in both its TT and online (Cyanide and fumbbl) forms. And I'd like those to continue to use the *same rules*.

The arrival of the Khorne and Brettonian rosters seem to suggest Cyanide are as far as GW are concerned, the new BBRC. The NAF needs a seat at that table if they are to remain relevant. And the player base would finally have a reason to pay subs other than because they *have to* or because they want the trinkets.

[Darkson]

The arrival of the Khorne and Brettonian rosters seem to suggest Cyanide are as far as GW are concerned, the new BBRC.

And yet GW specifically said they didn't consider the Khorne roster an official one, never hosted it on their website and haven't included it in the CRP (when they did) or had it added to the Icepelt that Cyanide are hosting.

I see the Khorne and Bret roster (at least at the moment) in the same light as things they allowed to be changed to units in the DoW series, none of which were added to the 40K rules just because a software company had made them.

[Waldorf28]

How exactly can inclusion in a licensed game be characterised as not official?

I'm not saying you're wrong, just that the position seems illogical.

I'd be genuinely interested to read where GW say Khorne is not official, can you provide a link?

[Gaixo]

From Lycos' statement regarding the NAF's decision on Khorne.

When I contacted GW to ask if this Khorne roster was likely to make the CRP in the future, I was told, absolutely not. Of course that could change, but the answer was emphatic. We could very easily have some 6, 7…8 more rosters like this in the years to come and without the diligent testing process there is every likelihood that eventually one roster will break it. And then there is an awful mess.

[Waldorf28]

It's hard to know whether that's an emphatic statement about the Khorne roster or a denial of a future version of the CRP!

I've said my piece. If heads are destined to stay up arses so be it

[MattDakka]

From Lycos' statement regarding the NAF's decision on Khorne.

[...]without the diligent testing process[...]

Which diligent testing process?
The same that brought us clawpomb nonsense?

[Darkson]

How exactly can inclusion in a licensed game be characterised as not official?

Off the top of my head (as I played them), the Sisters of Battle had an Avenging Angel and a Lightning fighter (plane), neither of which were in 40K (up to the time I stopped playing, I think they can take the Lightning now).
Never played it, but I believe the DoWII series had more changes, and the FPS Fire Warrior had other changes, one of which was requested so much they added it in to 40K (Fire Warrior with a Rail Gun).

Then the Xbox game Space Marine had the main character, an Ultramarine Captain, carrying heavy weapons, something not allowed in 40K.

And there were differences in WFB games like Shadow of the Horned Rat, but it's been so long since I played them I can't remember what they were.


So yeah, things can be included in licensed games which aren't considered "official" for the TT game that spawned them.

[Waldorf28]

I see. Illogical yet simultaneously true. I stand corrected.

Let's wait and see what version of the rules ships with BB2. Everything is hot air until then