Sukubus Team

[Dr. Von Richten]

I find it very very silly that there would be a problem using 'erotic' miniatures in a place where there are minors (i.e. teenagers). Show me one minor over the age of 12 (and that's probably too old already), who hasn't seen far more extreme 'erotics' online, and I'll show you a lack of internet connection.

[connexion]

Show me one minor over the age of 12 (and that's probably too old already), who hasn't seen far more extreme 'erotics' online, and I'll show you a lack of internet connection.

Hahahahahhahhahahahahaha!

[connexion]

Was looking at the Indiegogo page again and noticed me thinking:

"My, my, oh, my... These seem just what the doctor ordered to play the "Khorne" Daemons roster on the tabletop."

Yes, Khorne Daemons but let's just, for a minute, throw fluff into the wind. The roster is weird but challenging so, why not?

Yes, this Indiegogo is growing on me, I admit it...

[TalonBay]

I find it very very silly that there would be a problem using 'erotic' miniatures in a place where there are minors (i.e. teenagers). Show me one minor over the age of 12 (and that's probably too old already), who hasn't seen far more extreme 'erotics' online, and I'll show you a lack of internet connection.

That's a ridiculous argument, just because it's likely they've seen worse doesn't make these any more or less acceptable.

My personal take is that I like my fantasy football players to actually look like they're from a football game, if others want this style then they're free to spend their money as they like. There should be a line drawn for public tournaments though, I'd be very uncomfortable with either of my kids going along to an event where porn star esque poses were considered just fine. To be blunt I'd be embarrassed at how juvenile it makes the hobby look.

[Digger Goreman]

Lemme see if I can raise the dead for assistance....

George, George... are you there?

Part of the seven dirty words you can't say on tv

Btw: if your parents have had an honest and open talk with you about the do's and don'ts of what they feel is right for you, OR your prude level is "puckered" or higher, consider the origin of the advice and do what you know in your heart is right for you....

[Heff]

kinda Hawkeye initiative in video form.

http://lockerdome.com/tre/6170042811288 ... 5938715924

[SinisterDexter]

I'd like to weigh in with what, I think, is a slightly different take on this matter.

Before I do, I'd like to note that it seems that no-one in this thread WANTS to actively make the Blood Bowl community an awkward or otherwise uncomfortable one for women. That much seems obvious, albeit fraught because people have differing opinions on how that can be achieved. This is a good thing, because it seems that it is an issue we want to be both aware of and contributing towards.

So the question has to be: do teams like this one, that include sexualised depictions of women, actually make women feel awkward or uncomfortable and do they contribute to the low numbers of women engaged in the community?

There are a large number of people, both here and in other segments of related communities (tabletop wargaming as a whole) who argue yes. Even those who argue in defence of the figures seem to do so more out of a sense of the "right to offend" argument rather than that they don't make women uncomfortable (although JT-Y and Ruthy do, indeed, use that argument here, based on a sample size of one).

Before I go on, I'd like to note my personal opinion on offence, which is that I don't care if you are offended by anything as such. The politics of offence have far reaching consequences in our society and are filthy to the core. The proper response to the statement "I am offended" should be "so what?".

But... (there's always a but)

I do care about the Blood Bowl community and, if it turns out that the community is actually being adversely effected or losing 50% of its potential player base because of something like this, then I want to do something about it.

So, do teams like this one, that include sexualised depictions of women, actually make women feel awkward or uncomfortable and do they contribute to the low numbers of women engaged in the community?

Well, I'm not sure the evidence actually bears this out. It is definitely possible, but just based on the (very small) sample size invoked through this thread, it would seem that (surprise, surprise) women are not a homogenous group. In fact, neither are feminists. There are feminists (and women) who are rabidly against sexualised depictions and objectification, but there are also those who would argue that a strident assertion of sexual identity is as empowering as the opposite.

Unfortunately, bald assertions from either side claiming that women are or are not made to feel welcome by this kind of thing are absolutely without foundation.

Despite this, it is uncontroversial that women are underrepresented in our hobby.

So the question needs to change to something like: why are women underrepresented in the Blood Bowl community?

Until we can categorically answer that question (preferably with, you know, data rather than anecdote and assertion), arguments like this will go nowhere.

Having said that there is one area where I think it is really important to be aware, in the realm of kids. Some tournaments include kids and, where they do, I think some appropriate limits in regard to sexualised models is appropriate. I acknowledge that the fluff behind the game is very violent, but you never actually SEE this, whereas a model is right there in front of you and, if well painted, quite explicit. This just seems like basic prudence.

[Waldorf28]

Well said.

[Vanguard]

I'd rather companies put out strong looking, action posed female figures that look badass.

+1 from me, give me tough female players that look like they could kick my ass and I would finally play amazons.

I highly recommend Impact's Amazon team - sensibly posed models that look like they're playing BB.

[outcast]

@SinisterDexter - Spot on!

[voyagers_uk]

I have discussed that with Tom, they just don't hit the right note with me, they seem a bit, well, cuddly and not the impending can if whup-ass that I feel they should

[voyagers_uk]

I suppose u have the hard as nails aspect, amazonian aspect, the covered up/armoured yet female physique issue. None if which are easy to pull off. I suppose I would go for a more mad max beyond thunder-some feel with the legion of doom padding and enough clothing not to say "grope me" in the minds of impressionable youth. Kind of women who could bite you in two should they choose. Essex girls on a hen night feel.

[JT-Y]

My argument, just for the hard of thinking, isn't based on any sample size. Rather it's based on the assertion that you don't get police what is or is not acceptable for all based only on what you are comfortable with for yourself.
If you want that right in your own home that's fine. But once you decide you have that right in public then you cross the line.

Like it or not you will see people with miniatures like these at tournaments. They shouldn't be excluded to protect your sense of outrage.

Finally I have to say that you can look after your own kids, because I notice we are now defending some posters children from evil rather than protecting all the women.
If you can't look after them don't bring them. Not everyone cares.

Sorry. I know that sounds horrible but I really don't like kids and it annoys me that they often seem so fascinated by me when I do my level best to make them leave me alone by being thoroughly unpleasant to them.
It isn't an act. I'm not trying to amuse them. Take the shit eating grin from your face and them elsewhere.
I expect the parents to look after them so that I am not troubled by their presence. Respect that and they won't be subject to things you deem inappropriate, because you can rest assured that anyone bringing these miniatures to a tourney isn't expecting to be child minding.

It really isn't all about you.

[sann0638]

Finally I have to say that you can look after your own kids. If you can't look after them don't bring them. Not everyone cares.

So would you say that a (say) 12 year old, perfectly capable of playing a good game of Blood Bowl, comes to a tournament and is then exposed to pictures that you might in an adult magazine? Is there a way of "protecting" minors from the team that they are drawn to play against?

[SinisterDexter]

Nor, JT-Y, is it all about you. Kids exist everywhere and they run the gamut from quite young to 17. Kids on the older side of that spectrum do playin our community and are entitled to do so. It is not beyond the boundaries of appropriateness to have some guideline, as you actually pointed out, to suggest which tournaments might be adult and which "all ages". To coin your own phrase, for the "hard of thinking", much of what I posted actually agrees with you, although I suspect I actually have a social conscience to go with my strident opinion.