CD's starting roster

[mzukerman]

I played wood elves most recently so I'm having a very difficult time thinking of the Bull Centaurs as ball carriers. Don't get me wrong, the idea of a 4 strength ball carrier is quite exciting, but in order to make them really effective, I need to give them sure hands and break tackle. That takes a long time to give them that and meanwhile, I'm going to have a very difficult time getting them the ball.

I think of the BCs as amazing blitzers. They can get most places with the sure feet/sprint + 6 move and the four strength gives them a leg up. Add that to the fact that I plan on guarding most of my dwarves, I think they'll be very good that way. Skills will be Block/Frenzy/Mighty Blow or Block/Frenzy/Juggernaut.

Is my thinking that out of whack?

[Heff]

I played CDs on fumbbl and found that the Centaurs work so much better with BT and block first. without bt you are just gonna get tarpitted. Once they have BT they are a holy terror. They can pick up on a 4 or get a hand off with a 4. Just save a re-roll for when you try it.

[Aliboon]

Some people play with bulls as ball carriers, some don't.

Personally I don't as I feel that a bull is too expensive to be stuck in a cage, not using his ST 4. Afterall, the ST4 will only come into play when blocking/being blocked (and BT dodges). A ball carrier rarely blocks and should avoid being blocked as far as possible, so whilst bulls are good/great ball carriers, the hobbos are good enough.

[DixonCider]

Some people play with bulls as ball carriers, some don't.

Personally I don't as I feel that a bull is too expensive to be stuck in a cage, not using his ST 4. Afterall, the ST4 will only come into play when blocking/being blocked (and BT dodges). A ball carrier rarely blocks and should avoid being blocked as far as possible, so whilst bulls are good/great ball carriers, the hobbos are good enough.

bolded for emphasis. This is how I understood it

[garion]

If you get a +ag or +st hobo the sure, he is your ball carrier. Why are bulls better? They are better because they have Sprint and sure feet meaning their speed is incredibly useful for ball carrying. St 4 with break tackle means you are dodging on a 2+ while hobgoblin s dodge on a 3, this is of huge importance. Also a st 4 ball carrier is a hell of a lot harder to take down than a st3 one. Skilling up bull centaurs quickly is vital to having a good CD team and scoring with the same bull all the time will get him to legend in no time. Chaos dwarves are better blitzers anyway as they can have cpomb and you should always have plenty of guard support anyway. Finally on defence , especially if defending first a hobgoblin ball carrier with sure hands etc has a huge target on his head and your opponent should be doing all they can to blitz him every chance they get and with av7 they don't need many chances. St4 av9 players are a hell of a lot harder to take out the game.

Also just because a bull is a ball carrier doesn't mean that's its only role. I like my ball carrier bull to look like this eventually. Sure hands, break tackle , block, dodge or stat, guard, mighty blow. As you can see this player can do everything. It's a good Blitzer, a good support guard player and an amazing ball carrier. The other bull I would go - block, break tackle, mighty blow, tackle, guard, dodge or stat.

[JaM]

Shouldnt this be in the 'league' section..?

Anyway: If you can develop them, bulls are good. I've had some succes using CDs without bulls but with the mino in tournaments, if they can't get skills they can be a very expensive Black Orc...

Just my 0.02 €

[Jimmy Fantastic]

They key breakthrough I had was discovering that sometimes they have to be expensive Black Orcs.
Early on vs Orcs/Chaos the bulls need to be somewhat wasted by just bashing on the line.

[garion]

Anyway: If you can develop them, bulls are good. I've had some succes using CDs without bulls but with the mino in tournaments, if they can't get skills they can be a very expensive Black Orc...

Just my 0.02 €

You arent wrong, as Jimmy says sometimes you need them to just get hit, to open up space to score, especially against orcs who , until you have CPOMB, are a really tough team to face.

Also if you use a Bull ball carrier then you will get skills very quickly. More reason to carry the ball with them.

[Hucker73]

The proposed lineup is super slow. Let's assume your opponent targets your hobs and you've got 2 or 3 in the dugout by the end of the first half and you're even slower. Take a BC just for the speed it'll give you.

Just my opinion, but taking (at least one) Bull does seem to be the prevailing opinion.

Have you tried your team yet DC?

[Thadrin]

I'm not sure CHEAP Black Orcs is teh way to think of them...FAST Black Orcs is another way of looking at it.
I have CDs for the line. This gives me a MA6+3 ST4 Blitzer.

I use my Bulls as Ball carriers more because I want to develop them faster than I could a Black Orc (seeing as we're using that comparison). I played an Orc team for 16 (iirc) games and STILL had a BOB who hadn't even reached his first skill up. They're on my Fumbbl account still if you can be bothered looking. I DON'T want my Hobgobs getting SPPs anything other that incidentally. That's not what they're for. Hobgobs get in the way of opponents, give assists here and there, eat up blocks form opposing killers and kick opponents when they're down. My likely first skill ups for Hobgoblins are 1 getting Kick and 1 getting Dirty Player. Any others? I don't care. Once the team is humming along there'll only ever be two on the pitch, assuming I decide to buy a Mino. I might not.
meanwhile My Bulls will be getting Block, BT and either SH or MB or something.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

I'm not sure CHEAP Black Orcs is teh way to think of them...FAST Black Orcs is another way of looking at it.
I have CDs for the line. This gives me a MA6+3 ST4 Blitzer.

I use my Bulls as Ball carriers more because I want to develop them faster than I could a Black Orc (seeing as we're using that comparison). I played an Orc team for 16 (iirc) games and STILL had a BOB who hadn't even reached his first skill up. They're on my Fumbbl account still if you can be bothered looking. I DON'T want my Hobgobs getting SPPs anything other that incidentally. That's not what they're for. Hobgobs get in the way of opponents, give assists here and there, eat up blocks form opposing killers and kick opponents when they're down. My likely first skill ups for Hobgoblins are 1 getting Kick and 1 getting Dirty Player. Any others? I don't care. Once the team is humming along there'll only ever be two on the pitch, assuming I decide to buy a Mino. I might not.
meanwhile My Bulls will be getting Block, BT and either SH or MB or something.

I did check your fumbbl account. Your CD team has a surehands hobgoblin who scored the most tds!

The Black Orc comparison that I made was not that BCs are expensive BOBs, but that sometimes they need to be used as such. You don't get very far early on with just CDBs on the line vs Orcs etc.

[garion]

regardless of that jimmy, his points are still all correct.

[Fassbinder75]

I'm not sure CHEAP Black Orcs is teh way to think of them...FAST Black Orcs is another way of looking at it.
I have CDs for the line. This gives me a MA6+3 ST4 Blitzer.

I use my Bulls as Ball carriers more because I want to develop them faster than I could a Black Orc (seeing as we're using that comparison). I played an Orc team for 16 (iirc) games and STILL had a BOB who hadn't even reached his first skill up. They're on my Fumbbl account still if you can be bothered looking. I DON'T want my Hobgobs getting SPPs anything other that incidentally. That's not what they're for. Hobgobs get in the way of opponents, give assists here and there, eat up blocks form opposing killers and kick opponents when they're down. My likely first skill ups for Hobgoblins are 1 getting Kick and 1 getting Dirty Player. Any others? I don't care. Once the team is humming along there'll only ever be two on the pitch, assuming I decide to buy a Mino. I might not.
meanwhile My Bulls will be getting Block, BT and either SH or MB or something.

Chaos Dwarves are a cool team because there are a bunch of ways to play them. My personal preference is 180 degrees to yours, I never carry the ball with BC's by choice and use Blockers to screen and cage the Hobbo's. The BC's are firefighters & sideline hunters.

Both philosophies work, you can't say that about too many other rosters.

[Thadrin]

I did check your fumbbl account. Your CD team has a surehands hobgoblin who scored the most tds!

The Black Orc comparison that I made was not that BCs are expensive BOBs, but that sometimes they need to be used as such. You don't get very far early on with just CDBs on the line vs Orcs etc.

I had to check that. TBH I'd completely forgotten about that team. I last played them 9 years ago!

Notwithstanding my inability to distinguish between the words cheap and expensive because English is hard (and I've been up since 5.30 am) I actually agree with you. Sometimes they should just be thrown in to get their hooves dirty. That extra speed makes a huge difference when doing so though. Just putting them on the LoS seems wasteful.

[Smeborg]

I tried running a league side with only Chaos Dwarfs and Hobgoblins. You can have 3 RR, Apoth and 14 players for TV 100.

The team was weak, it got outbashed (whereas in 3rd edition, it held its own without being spectacular).

So I think you need the Bulls. My preferred starting roster is: 1 Bull, 6 CDs, 6 HGs, 3 RR. I like to start with 2 reserves, as rookie Hobgolins are fond of lurking in the dugout, and are obvious targets.

I don't think the Minotard is worthwhile for this team, although he can be a good inducement against bash teams.

I have had considerable success running the ball with Bull Centaurs, my preferred method (Hobgoblins are for back-up when you cannot afford to fail a pick-up). Break Tackle is my preferred first normal skill on the Bulls, it makes them mobile and aggressive in both attack and defence. They like to make bullshit plays when your opponent is napping.

Hope that helps.