(Un-)Living NecroTacticum: Necros vs the world of Blood Bowl

[mattgslater]

Too much. The fragility of Ghouls is critical to game balance. Undead already have one of the highest win rates. I think Mummies should have Decay if we let WApos (not even normal Apos) apply to all races, and then we can have it as written with no problem.

[Digger Goreman]

No arguments against Mummies with decay... though I would yank two ghouls from the list for balance also.... Actually, I would throw out the whole undead list without a tear....

[Digger Goreman]

I don't have total games recorded, but the Gravestones are a fairly typical Necro build team.... After losing their second ghoul to death, and sacking a 0spp zombie, the team is:

2x zeds 2spp each
2x zeds 7spp each, one with block and one with kick

2x ghouls 0&3 spp
2x wights 6&7 spp, both with MiB (just skilled in last game)
2x golems 4&0 spp, jeezie: even two zombies have skills
2x wolves 12&16 spp, block and blodge

3x rerolls, 7 ff, 154 tv
10k treasury

[Fassbinder75]

For a Necro team, having nine of your 11 starters with regen is already way, way better than having a rostered apothecary. For Undead with four ghouls it is a bit more of a problem, but it just means you'll likely have ghouls at various stages of development as they die off.

I wouldn't mind having wandering apothecaries for undead either.

[El_Jairo]

I'm Not opposed to something like a WA for undead but it should be called differently. Any apothecary who knows what he's doing won't touch an undead. I would rather call it a "wandering taxidermist" or "lych priest".

As you'll only have access to it if you are overpowered it isn't bad your players are already covered by regen.
I'm only not entirely sure if you should be able to use it before or after the regen roll...
For now I tend to say before, so it is a real choice instead of an safety assurance.

[Dr. Von Richten]

I'm Not opposed to something like a WA for undead but it should be called differently. Any apothecary who knows what he's doing won't touch an undead. I would rather call it a "wandering taxidermist" or "lych priest".

As you'll only have access to it if you are overpowered it isn't bad your players are already covered by regen.
I'm only not entirely sure if you should be able to use it before or after the regen roll...
For now I tend to say before, so it is a real choice instead of an safety assurance.

This already exists; it's called an Igor.

[Maverick]

No igor lets you reroll a failed regen roll, -- ghouls have no regen to fail.

[Dr. Von Richten]

No igor lets you reroll a failed regen roll, -- ghouls have no regen to fail.

True, but as El_jairo is discussing if it should apply before or after regen, the implication is that it is depedent on having regen anyway. Ghould should not ever be able to be saved, or the Undead team becomes even better, and it already is amongst the best.

[El_Jairo]

I was rather suggesting an apoth for undead but you have to commit him before the regen Roll. Just as if would do with a normal apoth.
So you could use it on Ghouls. Only if you spend 100k petty cash on it, so I don't think it would disbalance Undead that much.
A RR on regen is harder in my opinion because regen already gave 50% recovery chance.

[Digger Goreman]

The suggestion I floated in the late days of the BBRC (and Tom seemed to like, at the time) was to eliminate the "necromancer" ablility to raise a zombie for an on roster Igor.... I can only guess that JJ, or partisanship, shot it down....

A simple, to me, solution is to change the Apothecary to exclude regenners.... Then allow them for any team.... As is, should a vamp and troll benefit from the double effect? I think not.... That change would also have eliminated the need to insert a rule that says you must use apoth before deciding on regen....

Regen is a part of the game and I am not seeking a change when I say that it is a poor man's apothecary.... For 50k, one time, you are almost guaranteed to save your star whoredancer while for 20k PER PLAYER, you have a 50 percenter to save your werewolves.... I certainly wish you could use both on werewolves (like on vamps and trolls), cause I would take the surer thing on a 5x/6x than a 50/50 chance.... AND I wish for a personal ghoul saver....

"The Undead need ghouls to die", is a straw man to me... both because it won't change and because Undead need a serious fade out that will never happen... or at least to lose two ghouls from the lineup... and because, in a game with dwarelfs, the power curve is NOT in favor of even the mini-maxed Undead....

All theory-bowl....

[mattgslater]

Ooh… make Igor a 4+ to save a player, after Regen if any. So on a Regen guy, Igor is basically unchanged, and on a Ghoul it's a poor-man's WApo. Voila, Ghouls remain fragile (no rostered save, Igor < WApo on a Ghoul), Igor becomes seriously worthwhile as it can save anybody.

[El_Jairo]

Putting the Igor thing aside. BTW, I picked an Undead team (instead of DE) because of great frenzy players and because Regen takes away the frustration of an Apoth: you have to choose when to use him and typically he won't do his job when it's most needed. It is also a great way to eliminate the need for a big bench.

On another topic, I just rolled my first skills on my fumbll team today. And my Ghoul gained AG+, which I took, of course.
Now if it survives until 3rd skill, would it be an idea to give him Nerves of Steel instead of Sure Hands?

I guess not because you need at least 1 Sure hands dude on the team, and who better that de AG 4 dude?

On the other hand, having only 1 dedicated ball-carrier, isn't that risky for when he gets knocked off the pitch? Or do you simply settle with the next AG3 player with block? Being a wight or Wolf, as the second Ghoul is Wrackle safety...

A blodge Wolf would make most sence, as Wights might want to have Guard.

BTW, is it a good idea to have 1 Wight pick Tackle first (instead of MiB) if you want to be able to hurt WE and Human catchers? MiB has more wider use but Tackle can be a lifesaver and I can't see any other player gaining this skill soon and making the most out of it.

[Digger Goreman]

Look at the bottom of page six....

[swilhelm73]

P
On another topic, I just rolled my first skills on my fumbll team today. And my Ghoul gained AG+, which I took, of course.
Now if it survives until 3rd skill, would it be an idea to give him Nerves of Steel instead of Sure Hands?

I would suggest block. Necro rarely throw the ball, and with ag4 you can generally dodge away anyway.

[El_Jairo]

Look at the bottom of page six....

Cheers, I started re-reading from page 7, so that's why I missed it.

EDIT: actually I didn't miss it.

Gl1 surehands, block, kor
Gl2 wrestle, tackle
On all ghouls take +St and +Ag, suggest ignoring other stat increases

You didn't mention anything on changing development on a +Ag. Does this simply means KoR is still the best for Ag 4 Ghoul?
BTW, saw that only a double suggestion was made for the wrackle Ghoul: guard but I would rather take MiB. Wrestle doesn't seem ideal for guard. MiB seems good on Tackle
/EDIT

I didn't realise that NoS is a passing skill so a double would be needed. But I haven't seen anybody mention it as a possible skill for double.

I recon sure hand is a real usefull skill for a blodge ballhandler. So it won't be something to forego for leap or any other skill. Leap sounds tempting as it creates a new threat on offense and is also useful on defense.

@Swill: I was talking about third skill choice, after block