LRB favors AG teams (Rant)

[BullBear]

Hey fellas,

I just played the first BB game of our new season, and a suspicion of mine has been confirmed. 'Bashy' teams have become handcuffed and placed at a serious disadvantage. I quick look through most leagues will show that AG teams are generally placed higher than the ST ones. Here's a list of a few things that I feel are 'wrong' about the current state of BB. (I'm sure these points have been brought up before, but I don't have time to read through multiple threads).

1) Like it or not, w/out SPPs for fouling, ST teams grow at a slower rate than AG teams. ST teams also gain exp more 'randomly' than the AG teams (w/ more SPPs given out for AG actions - which the coach has more control over, ie. who scores, who passes the pussy pass, etc. IMO, SPPs for fouling can work under IGMEOY, and gives ST coaches more control on how they receive SPPS.

2) MB needs to go back to 3rd (or 'My AG skills are better than your ST skills'). Example: Dodge can be used during blocks OR dodging. MB has been reduced to ONLY being used during a block, if I want to have a skill effect a dodge, I need to get Tackle. Two skills to 'counter' the one.

-If I may take a moment here, a failed GFI causes a straight armour roll, during a block I can use MB, BUT if a character fails to dodge away, I can't hit'em with MB, he simply trips? The chance of breaking armour is no more than a GFI? If a player fails to dodge out twice, the opponent should be able to use his hitting skills, as he has simply decked the dodger. Am I missing something?

3) Bashy skills and actions are being reduced, while 'tarted rules like intercepting BEFORE a pass is thrown are being put in place to increase interceptions. Another AG based action, with SPPs to go with it, I might add. (BTW, who was complaining about a lack of interceptions?)

4) Ageing is now in place, since the kid gloves are on the teams. The turnover rate isn't as high on the high AG teams, so we have a whole new chart to bring down players with dizzying amounts of SPPs. Now, it's more fun to see players just fade away...

Like I've said before, the 'Blood' has been removed from the game. If PO gets shackled as well (declaring before the roll), I may consider hanging this game up for awhile. Well, that and the fact that I've been displeased with the way BB has been handled lately. Anyway, thanks for listening.

[Cervidal]

"ST teams grow at a slower rate than AG teams. ST teams also gain exp more 'randomly' than the AG teams "

This has always been the case, regardless of previous edition or the current. Strength teams have always been at the mercy of the AV and Inj. dice.

"a failed GFI causes a straight armour roll, during a block I can use MB, BUT if a character fails to dodge away, I can't hit'em with MB, he simply trips? The chance of breaking armour is no more than a GFI? If a player fails to dodge out twice, the opponent should be able to use his hitting skills, as he has simply decked the dodger. Am I missing something?"

Yes, you are. Mighty Blow has never affected failed dodges. This has not changed from the previous edition to the current one.

"Bashy skills and actions are being reduced, while 'tarted rules like intercepting BEFORE a pass is thrown are being put in place to increase interceptions."

I don't like pointing out someone's flaws, but are you sure you ever sat down and read the rule book? Once again, this was the case in the previous edition.

"I quick look through most leagues will show that AG teams are generally placed higher than the ST ones."

I'm not so sure about your experience, but it has been mine that, if a league plays a fairly consistant, balanced schedule, this is usually the case. A high rated Elf team is usually expected to beat a highly rated Orc/Chaos/Undead team because, in addition to having fairly equal skills, the Elven teams have faster, more agile stat lines, making them much more able to score at will. Scoring wins Blood Bowl. Your bash team could reduce my High Elves to three players, but it won't matter if I took a 3-0 lead into halftime.

[NightDragon]

But the basic gripe is a fair one. This has always been the case, so what is being done about it? Mind you DE's are so superior that no rule changes would make much of a difference.

[BullBear]

Yes, you are. Mighty Blow has never affected failed dodges. This has not changed from the previous edition to the current one.

Death Zone p12: "MIGHTY BLOW - Add +1 to ANY Armour and Injury rolls made by a player with this skill"

I'll concede your point on interceptions being rolled before the throw. My league's never played that way before, until recently. My bad.

I'm not so sure about your experience, but it has been mine that, if a league plays a fairly consistant, balanced schedule, this is usually the case. A high rated Elf team is usually expected to beat a highly rated Orc/Chaos/Undead team because, in addition to having fairly equal skills, the Elven teams have faster, more agile stat lines, making them much more able to score at will. Scoring wins Blood Bowl. Your bash team could reduce my High Elves to three players, but it won't matter if I took a 3-0 lead into halftime.

True, but under 3rd, w/ SPPS for fouling, these high AG teams were taken down to a degree. This prevented elves from going 3-0. Maybe more like 2-1 either way, since I could 'target' key scorers. I don't like your scenario AT ALL. If it's a common fact that AG teams will/should be better than their ST counterparts, of equal standing, I will stop playing now, as it's pointless! The only way to cripple the AG teams and keep them on the same level, is to allow the bashies to, well, bash.

[Sushé Wakka]

Ah, well... I agree with you, they're nerfing the bashy part of the game. However, that argument that it is "normal" for AG teams to beat ST teams couldn't make less sense. There's plenty of ways for a ST team to beat AG teams... Just don't concretate on maiming, ans take control of the game's pace. The game is, after all, about touchdowns.

[DoubleSkulls]

Shall I point out that making Hand off an action hampers most AG teams?

Also the range bands have effectively increased with LRB 2.0 as the whole square must be inside the band.

Making Strong Arm a trait hurts passing teams. Also Dauntless being a trait makes it harder for them to complete with high strength players.

Meanwhile the only trait that hurts bashing teams is frenzy. Okay MB is slightly weaker - but it never used to apply to failed dodges anyway.

[Tim]

I just played the first BB game of our new season, and a suspicion of mine has been confirmed. ...

Hmm, isn't that a little too though judgement after a single game?

I don't really see the game unbalanced in favor of AG teams. It has always been difficult for a bashy team to win against agility teams if they don't get the casulties in. Vice versa, an agility team usually suffers the danger of getting mangled in a game so badly, that it's completly uncompetitive for several games. Think of a DE team suffering 1 or two deaths together with 2-3 SIs ... with the prices for their players, the are not going to win the next game(s).

Additional with the rules changes Ian mentioned, there's also the aging rule, that helps to avoid the development of the 5 skill super-elf.

[GalakStarscraper]

Hey fellas,

I just played the first BB game of our new season, and a suspicion of mine has been confirmed. 'Bashy' teams have become handcuffed and placed at a serious disadvantage. I quick look through most leagues will show that AG teams are generally placed higher than the ST ones.

The top two teams out of 40 in my MBBL league are Dwarf and Chaos.

The top three teams from the MBBL2 out of 6 teams out of 80 were 1 Undead, 2 Chaos, 1 Wood Elf, 1 Norse, and 1 Dwarf.

Last time I looked the team with the highest winning percentage of any race in the FUMBBL league which has played THOUSANDS of LRB games was the Undead.

From my point of view, BullBear ... I'm not seeing the support of your position in league play.

Galak

[MistWraith]

Having played BB:tLRB for roughly a year now, I can tell you that Bashy teams are not underpowered. In fact, the only Agility team to do well consitiantly, is the wood elves. Undead, Dwarves, and Orc's have all placed highly in out leauges, High Elf and Dark Elf teams have always placed low. If anything, it is our experiance that the two elf teams need help, not nerfing.

[Grumbledook]

In FUMBBL if you have a high tr bashing team it can be hard to find an opponent, as i play bashing teams I wouldn't say they are underpowered at all, maybe its your tactics that are at fault.

[Deathwing]

I keep saying this periodically, but IME a developed Wood Elf team was one of the dominant teams in 3e, the other one being a high end Chaos team with killer combos. Both were extreme ends of the spectrum, and both have been brought back in the pack under LRB. The teams are better balanced under LRB than they've ever been.

[Dave]

I agree there Deathwing.

The power of Strenght teams is that they can maim an Agillity team so that the'll lose the next game, and the next and ..

Welfs for example are so expensive that a beginning team usually misses quite some players, in fact it is normal for them to start with just 8 or so..

That really balances things out

[wesleytj]

referring to the original post, I think the guy does make some balance issue points. and some of his stuff is a good idea even though it wasn't done before. for example, i'd like to see skill mods applied to dodge av/inj rolls...with the caveat that you have to pick ONE tackler and use only their skills.

however, not all the new skill stuff is good for the agility teams. New diving tackle is definintely not good for us. frenzy really sucks now (witch elves). Dauntless, always the great equalizer for elves, now takes a doubles roll.

ageing REALLY hurts elf teams. if a line orc gets a niggler from ageing, so what? if a line ELF gets a niggler from it, even if he DOES usually ride the bench (which is less likely), elves tend to use more of their bench more often than orcs.

the new money rules hurt elf teams. with the most expensive players, and some high turnover, it's REALLY tough to keep your team afloat when they win 20k a game...and no cards to save you. (YAY Merchandising. And extra 200k this game!)

i could go on. in short, I disagree that elf teams are overall higher in leauge standings, and I'm saying while I agree with a lot of what you said, you need to look at both sides. To be honest I think ALL teams got a little weaker under lrb. Now, whether that's a good thing or not, or whether you think all teams are still balanced as a result, that's up for debate. Just make sure you look at the situation from all angles.

[Deathwing]

Don't forget Leap, that alone was huge in hamstringing Wardancers...

[Skummy]

My league's current leader is an Undead team, with Amazons, High Elves, Orcs and Lizardmen immediately behind. We've had 4 tournaments, and Elves have never won a championship. Humansx2, Skaven and Lizardmen have been the dominant teams. Orcs have the current highest TR.