Knock-out schedules

[mepmuff]

Just thinking aloud here, could a system with knock-out rounds in the final rounds work for Blood Bowl tournaments?

I've seen several times that the winner of a tournament is known before the final round, which is a shame IMHO. Working towards a true final in a knock-out schedule would solve that.

I would not want a complete knock-out schedule however, as that can become problematic depending on the number of contestants. So, I am looking for preliminary rounds in Swiss and the final rounds knock-out. Losers from the knock-out phase flow back into the Swiss system.

The major downside I can think of is that I can't guarantee two players won't play each other twice. Especially the final cannot be guaranteed to not be a re-match, but for the final that would be ok IMHO.

So, help me tie up the loose ends in this.

- Can we arrange a Swiss(ish) preliminary schedule so we can schedule the Knock-out phase in two brackets in such a way that the final is the only possible rematch? Would it work to split the teams in two brackets for the prelims as well, with both halves doing Swiss and the top 4 of both brackets going into the play-offs?
- How to resolve ties? I feel taking Net Cas would benefit bash too much, overtime I feel can sometimes be a bit of a lottery as well and will put a constraint on the timetable. Surely there's a way to resolve this that would work in a tournament?

[lunchmoney]

Sounds like something we (my league mates and I) discussed a while back on the Exiles forum http://www.exilesleague.com/phpbb3/view ... f=14&t=285 which you clearly wouldn't have seen but take a look, we may have covered some ideas you might be interested in.
I'll take a proper look when I'm at home.

[Willi]

I think it could partilly work. So with 32 players why not do the following:

8 groups of 4 players. you play everyone in the group (3 matches).
Winner of the group goes to the quarterfinal. Rest of the groups go into one pool and play for place 9 three games swiss style.
Losers of the quarterfinals play 2 more games to determine places 5 to 8, losers of the semifinals play for third place.

That means everyone gets 6 matches and nobody plays anyone twice.
I would like that format even if I surely wouldn´t make the quarters.

[Glowworm]

I think it could partilly work. So with 32 players why not do the following:

8 groups of 4 players. you play everyone in the group (3 matches).
Winner of the group goes to the quarterfinal. Rest of the groups go into one pool and play for place 9 three games swiss style.
Losers of the quarterfinals play 2 more games to determine places 5 to 8, losers of the semifinals play for third place.

That means everyone gets 6 matches and nobody plays anyone twice.
I would like that format even if I surely wouldn´t make the quarters.

I'm sure Vaultcon ran a tournament based on this, top 2 from each group went on to play for " the title" bottom 2 went into a seperation draw to play for " the plate" IIRc.....I didn't win either BTW!

[besters]

I'm sure Vaultcon ran a tournament based on this, top 2 from each group went on to play for " the title" bottom 2 went into a seperation draw to play for " the plate" IIRc.....I didn't win either BTW!

They did. I think it could work like a Rugby Union 7's tournament where after the Group stages winners play winners and losers play losers but at each round you restrict where you can finish so with 32 players in groups 16 qualify for the main tournament 16 for the plate (or whatever you want to call it) effectively playing for 17th.

After the first knockout round, you have 8 who can still win, 8 playing for 9th to 16th, etc. and so it goes on.

Does that make sense?

[Elyoukey]

the pool system (4x8) is cool if you have exactelly 32 players, i think it could work, but if in the end it appears that you have less players you will have some rematch, and if you have more you will have to rearrange the system.
a swiss system in witch you play 3 rounds in first day and then KO for the top8 on day 2 could work, but prevent some extrardinary come back we can see sometimes. And may be some people will not want to play on day 2 if they know they cannot win at all and don't have any influence on the tourney outcome (not sure about that point)

[mepmuff]

What I'm trying to achieve is a set-up that will work for any number of players. Divinding into pools is a good way if the numbers allow this. I guess I will run some simulations to see how the top 4/8 might look after three rounds using Swiss.

And may be some people will not want to play on day 2 if they know they cannot win at all and don't have any influence on the tourney outcome (not sure about that point)

I don't think that will be much of an issue if the knock-out losers flow back into the Swiss system. Sure, if you're not in the knock out you can't win or become runner-up but you can end up higher than the runner up if you win everything on day 2.

One big issue that I hadn't thought of is what to do if numbers 8 and 9 (or 4 and 5, etc) are tied before the first play-off game? This of course ties in with resolving ties in the play-offs, where OT is possible but will put a strain on the schedule.