A Call for Calm

[Woolfe]

Reading the ausbowl forum, it sounds like most of the aussies arguments seem to be focused around "we don't do many tournies and therefore NAF value is limited for us". With a few exceptions - that Woolfe chap in particular seems to be more preoccupied with simply picking apart any post from someone who isn't an ausbowl regular than entering into meaningful discourse - you guys have identified a regional community need and have the energy/time to deliver it. Problem is, by saying "oh the NAF doesn't do this, we'll do our own" is a) daft and b) selfish. Don't overreact at those words but

Ok as that "Woolfe Chap". Let me say a few things first.
1) My opinion is NOT indicative of Ausbowl as a whole. I voice my opinion on an open forum, which is not locked down to member's only.
2) My opinion on the "Joke" thing is not the issue. The "joke" thing was a bunch of crap trollish behaviour and apologies from trolls are usually efforts of "sorry I got caught" rather than I am actually sorry.
3) Actually I was completely targeting Geggster, Lycos and Sann. Because they came into the forum and opened themselves to comment. And yes I picked them apart. That is what I do to better understand an argument.
4) Of all the guys on Ausbowl in that particular thread, I am definitely the most selfish. Feel free to rag on me for not "volunteering etc" but don't apply that to the other guys there. They have proven themselves immeasurably worthy of commenting, and your attacks on them is one of the reasons I consider your "apology" worthless.

a) if you can crack the league question you can pioneer something the NAF (and the rest of the world) can use. If what you do is good and you do it with a business case the NAF picks up, you can do more than ausbowl on it's own could. Why ignore the NAF completely just because regionally you do fewer tournaments?

You misunderstand me completely. I currently get nothing from the NAF. I do not play tournaments. But I constantly hear that they NAF represents BB players. Well guess what, they don't represent me, they have nothing for me. I represent a segment of the BB community that the NAF just do not even seem willing to look at.

b) Selfish because some people make the argument "The NAF don't do what I want therefore they are an irrelevance, your NAF community hasn't solved MY particular problem", then in another thread argues that the ausbowl community can fix this problem but only want to do it for Ausbowl.

So just how long has the league game existed? How long has the NAF existed. Are you telling me in all that time, I am the only one to raise the question of League. If the NAF truly represents BB then they should already be supporting leagues. Let alone trying to pull Cyanide and Fumbbl in. Instead, its just tourneys.
Why the hell should I pay money to an organisation that doesn't represent me, and then expects me to help build them something to support me.

The NAF isn't a magic wand, it wants to provide league support, library stuff, community hub stuff... but the community itself is NOT forthcoming. The naf isn't the bottomless pit of creativity, places like ausbowl are - if you have the time and energy, the NAF is the place that multiplies that out to make it more than you could. The NAF didn't form saying "sit back chaps, Lycos will write strategy guides for every team and design the best league system you could ever want". It's a way of taking the output of what community minded people do, disseminating it and where it can providing the financial clout to realise things no small league could ever do.

Perhaps they are looking at it the wrong way. Perhaps they shouldn't be trying to do it all, and instead pointing them at the stuff that already exists. Maybe even asking permission *Gasp* to host some of it directly.
Perhaps instead of "Lycos will design the best league system you could ever want" they just make an attempt to support the leagues somehow. I don't see why there isn't a league database that does basically the same thing as the tourney ranking database.

This wider discussion probably needs another thread. I'll start one when I get time. I'd happily join and chat on ausbowl if I didn't think I'd get lynched by people who don't read threads before they get locked but still form the opinion I'm part of a mob of dicks

And so the actions of an individual tar an entire community. Wow irony much.
For what its worth I am sorry that my opinion is preventing you from jumping on Ausbowl and actually entering a discussion that might help clear up the issues there. But I don't apologise for my comment. As I stated on Ausbowl at the time, it is not just "the thread that has been hidden" that lead me to my opinion.

[Oneoneeye]

^ Babs post is a bigger loss than i think any of you fully understand...

I'm not a master of words and i fail more often that not to get my point across when i enter a debate but I'm starting to see a bit of an attitude of "Oh its only the Aussies that are upset now so they must be a bunch of sooks" emerging and in all seriousness, Ausbowl is a very vibrant, active and freaking awesome community who are far from the types to whinge for no reason (except the Ashes but then we don't have filthy cheaters like Broad in our squad ). The guys who are active in this discussion like Olaf the Stout, Shtevo0 and Virral are amongst a group trying to build BB in Australia/NZ to never before seen heights and it takes quite a lot to get them fired up. With that in mind, what i think is missing here is an understanding of just why the Aussie coaches have taken offence to this situation.

Nope i'm not trying to start up another round of mudslinging and i'm not trying being provocative but what i am wanting to highlight is this point in all seriousness...

I have counted 4 highly respected people (NAF and non-NAF) who have mentioned in different topics (and forums) that they had no idea about Ausbowl until this whole issue blew up. Have you considered that this is a large contributor to our disappointment with the current leadership when the governing body of BB actually had no idea about the biggest BB website in Australia/NZ/Asia?? Have you guys not considered this may be the reason why we think there is a clique?

Seriously guys, you claim to not be insular yet you had absolutely no idea of a large community of BB's that regularly comment on TFF, have accounts on NAF as well as a representative in Babs in the country in question? And you are struggling to understand where the angst is coming from?

I personally see two very different backgrounds clashing and without some sort of give and take, this is going to cause a very damaging divide that may take a very very long time to heal. Sure, keep on going back and forth between each others posts and argue until your blue in the face if you think it will help but i truly feel those of you suggesting this is a storm in a teacup really don't understand the full ramifications and really don't understand the needs of those outside the main heartland of NAF.

[Bill]

And I'd like to add that the Oz BB community is as diverse as the other national communities, some groups more vocal than others - there is a less vocal group of old hands that is somewhat "in the middle" if there could be said to be two "camps". This loose group includes most, if not all, Oz coaches that have travelled OS just to play the great game & most, but not all, of the hardcore tournament players down here.

This loose group is mostly, but not totally, pro NAF.

Because most of us, if not all of us, understand that without the NAF, the scene would be a fraction of what it is now.

sangraal

[VoodooMike]

I currently get nothing from the NAF. I do not play tournaments. But I constantly hear that they NAF represents BB players. Well guess what, they don't represent me, they have nothing for me. I represent a segment of the BB community that the NAF just do not even seem willing to look at.

I, too, get nothing out of the NAF and have never seen any serious purpose to the organization. I've played BB for longer than I'm comfortable to admit around women, but it has never had anything to offer me. The (somewhat fuzzy) concept is great, but the execution has never been there. We represent not simply a segment, but an overwhelming majority of people who play BB, that have until now simply not been considered "a real part of the game" by the NAF.

So just how long has the league game existed? How long has the NAF existed. Are you telling me in all that time, I am the only one to raise the question of League. If the NAF truly represents BB then they should already be supporting leagues. Let alone trying to pull Cyanide and Fumbbl in. Instead, its just tourneys.

Seemingly only recently, the NAF has come to the realization that tournaments are not the entirety of BB, which is why people for whom tournaments are the entirety of BB have always believed that the NAF represents BB players. Now, mind you, league play has been more extensive than tournament play for a long, long time anyway, which suggests that the NAF has been ridiculously out of touch for a long time.

It's disheartening to anyone who see the potential in a global, centralized organization, to hear that the closest thing to that is only now planning to one day support leagues, nevermind the cyclopean online play community. To be fair, however, what can they possibly offer league and online players that is not already available to them for $15 cheaper and implemented by more capable people?

Why the hell should I pay money to an organisation that doesn't represent me, and then expects me to help build them something to support me.

Mohammed is quite certain he can out-wait the mountain, I think. Besides, if they spent any of the 50,000 they've got kicking around, on seriously modernizing the organization and making it relevant to the huge number of BB players to whom it currently has no relevance, what would Scrooge McDuck roll around in?

It's swell that the NAF wants to refurbish itself, but I have little interest in plans, only in actual implementation. Too much of what I've seen thus far sounds like a politician's speech: lots of discussion of what we'd like to see, but not much detail on how, what, or when. If you want interest then be interesting... if you want to be relevant then BE RELEVANT.

Of course, the alternative is for some of the people who want the NAF to actually be relevant to league and online play to just set up a second organization that handles those, and then times how long it takes for NAF to panic and stop talking about change and actually put some of that cash and effort toward not being out-competed by those snot-nosed upstarts

[Carnivean]

Long time member first time poster . . .

Despite their still being a lot angst, bitter taste and other terms used to express disenchantment being thrown around, there have been a lot of positives to come out of this and I hope I am not alone:

- I think a lot of people in Australia took Babs for granted to some extent. Not that we didn't appreciate what he did, but I dont we realised how much he did above and beyond. We have always had Babs on tap. So first of all, a big thank you to Babs on the Blood Bowl side of things.

- AusBowl definitely has got a bump from this. I think it is positive that the people have come across and spent some time on there have added value. Galak has been there quite some time now, but it is good to see the others come across for a chat.

- Am I surprised that a lot of people didn't know about AusBowl? Yeah. I am equally surprised by the number of people saying how surprised they are that AusBowl isn't known about . I guess when you start these things up (AusBowl as a community) you never really get any validation, the fact that it survives is probably a good indicator. I guess on the selfish side of things it has been positive to see people speak out to say that it is a needed resource. Thankyou.

- After the initial fallout, there was a poll created on AusBowl about what should happen if anything. Originally you could not change your vote and early on the vote for no-NAF was relatively strong, but since tempers died down and the OP managed to edit the poll to allow changes, discussion has been positive. 50 of 63 votes currently include the NAF as part of any proposal. 54% basically have anything that is to be done as a complimentary effort to the NAF. I think this says a lot.
Maybe it took something like this to bring it to the fore, and who knows what will happen if anything, but the consensus is that the NAF remains part of anything we may do as a community.

- In all honesty, I hope whatever happens on AusBowl is looked on as something that the NAF can use. Hell if something crashes and burns, that is effort not wasted by the NAF and if it flies, NAF has the benefit of a vocal pilot group
We are not trying to take over the world. You have to remember that time zones are problematic and it is something that all Australian/NZ people in global communities have had to deal with. Maybe it is something that drives us. Communication isn't always the easiest with a parent-body based OS, so we always look at what we can do with what we have.


I dont even want to go in to what happened previously.
There have been positives to come out of it though and I really hope that our input helps the broader community. Maybe it wont, maybe we wont do anything.
I think something will change locally for us. I have voiced on the AusBowl forums that we should exist with the framework available, ideally engaging people and offering a service to compliment what there is from the NAF.

What I dont agree with is that it is seen as something divisive or counter-productive. There are a lot of things the NAF will never be able to address for the community on AusBowl. This isn't a failing of the NAF as such, but it is something every community in our neck of the woods deals with.
As a community we deal with vastly different environmental issues.
What we are dealing with is an environment 4x larger than the UK, Germany, France, Italy and Spain combined, with a single point of call in Babs. We have about 1/15 of the total population. I dont even want to think about the population density of Blood Bowl players.
If something comes to pass that supports the Blood Bowl community in our neck of the woods, provides support that is probably well overdue for Babs and compliments the NAF, it can't be a bad thing.

Cheers,

Erin

[sann0638]

[Perhaps they shouldn't be trying to do it all, and instead pointing them at the stuff that already exists.

<sobs> http://www.thenaf.net

Excellent posts guys - very sorry when people cut ties, I know there are lots who think TFF is very silly indeed, but I still get lots from it and I think it is a first port of call for lots of new players.

I think it is fair enough that the NAF first existed as a primarily tournament resource (possibly the original mission statement was misleading), and I still don't think individual ranking of league players is a good idea, and obblm seems to me to offer everything from a league organisational point of view that is needed. What the NAF needs to do for leagues is list them in as easy a way as possible and support new leagues in setting up their own websites, forums etc.

And excellent post Voodoo - I confess as soon as I saw your name next to the post I flinched slightly in what you were going to write, but it actually turned out okay!

And I like cyclopean...

[Darkson]

Very briefly, as im on a phone in Sorrento.

Indi, im glad you think mr_hannah's posts on the NAF were in line, shows where your balance is.

And for your information, I'm not "anti-NAF" I'm "anti-NAF with the current administration". The whole organisation has stagnated for so long. I have the utmost respect for Dave (Lycos) and have told him so, but if I'm honest, I wish I'd voted for Geoff 3 or 4 years ago.
The benefit of hindsight.

[Indigo]

I didn't think that, but he apologised. The apology is the important part.

[nonumber]

If Australasian players are concerned about their voice not being heard, or a lack of awareness of some kind, then why are they operating a seperate board?

Why are there ANY seperate boards for Blood Bowl? Aside from individual leagues maybe. We're a cult following. We play a tiny, unique and almost unknown game. Dividing ourselves doesn't really make sense to me because the idea pool is already quite small.

If I were a shareholder about to attend an AGM with a point to raise, I wouldn't go and do it in a seperate room with a few other people and complain about why the rest of the group are in the main hall being "cliquey" and sticking to themselves.

I'm one of the people that never knew Ausbowl existed. Why is it there? Why aren't Australasian Blood Bowl players coming to TFF on a regular basis to throw ideas back and forth or to raise questions with the rest of us? I'm sorry but I don't see the logic in operating your own seperate board and getting wound up because we won't come to you.

Merge the boards. And accept apologies. Let's be friends.

[Virral]

That is never going to happen, sorry. The debate about Australasia and the NAF has nothing to do with us feeling marginalised, and believe it or not most members are aware of TFF but don't care to visit here at all.

[nonumber]

That is never going to happen, sorry. The debate about Australasia and the NAF has nothing to do with us feeling marginalised, and believe it or not most members are aware of TFF but don't care to visit here at all.

Why not?

We aren't the biggest family in the world and it seems stupid to me that we'd be estranged. Sorry, but I think it's pointless to have two seperate forums, probably more out there somewhere. And then to be suprised when people don't know the forum exists? Please, explain the logic in that to me.

Merge the forums. It's not like its hard. Then we've got a bigger, better, international Blood Bowl community. How can anyone be against that??

And if feeling isolated or something isn't the problem (which is what it sounds like) then what is the problem? Lack of league support? That issue is voiced all over the world so is hardly Aus-specific. The "cliquey-ness"? There is no clique. I know that's a cherished illusion that many people are going to find hard to part with but there just isn't a clique. Most of the individuals typically accused of being in said clique I speak to on a regular basis and never once have felt any sense of exclusion.

[Fassbinder75]

If Australasian players are concerned about their voice not being heard, or a lack of awareness of some kind, then why are they operating a seperate board?

Why are there ANY seperate boards for Blood Bowl? Aside from individual leagues maybe. We're a cult following. We play a tiny, unique and almost unknown game. Dividing ourselves doesn't really make sense to me because the idea pool is already quite small.

If I were a shareholder about to attend an AGM with a point to raise, I wouldn't go and do it in a seperate room with a few other people and complain about why the rest of the group are in the main hall being "cliquey" and sticking to themselves.

I'm one of the people that never knew Ausbowl existed. Why is it there? Why aren't Australasian Blood Bowl players coming to TFF on a regular basis to throw ideas back and forth or to raise questions with the rest of us? I'm sorry but I don't see the logic in operating your own seperate board and getting wound up because we won't come to you.

Merge the boards. And accept apologies. Let's be friends.

I'm a member of both boards and I get value out of both of them, but I post more there.

[snakees]

Can anyone make a summary of what is happening right there ?

Is it "the naf" vs "ausbowl separatist" + personnal attacks vs "bad rumor jokers" ?

We arrive at a point where both side have to summaries all opinion make them clear. Then main protagonist have to start a discussion on skype to clarify the situation. After that you can report your decision/discussion on a new topic. This leads to nothing good.

ps. WTF is the clique ?

[JT-Y]

Can anyone make a summary of what is happening right there ?

Is it "the naf" vs "ausbowl separatist" + personnal attacks vs "bad rumor jokers" ?

We arrive at a point where both side have to summaries all opinion make them clear. Then main protagonist have to start a discussion on skype to clarify the situation. After that you can report your decision/discussion on a new topic. This leads to nothing good.

ps. WTF is the clique ?

I agree. Take the argueing and name calling private. This is a disgrace. To both the forums involved.

As a new player to BB and someone who's spent more years than I care to remember running some pretty massive tourneys for other systems and doing my not insignificant best to promote this hobby, this debate makes me wonder what I've stepped in by deciding to play BB.
It is a good thing I made the effort to go out to tourneys and get to know the people on the ground running them and playing them, because the high-riders on the internet really scratch my Nails.
I enjoy the game, I enjoy the small modelcount, I enjoy that the wife and I can play a 7-a-side game in under an hour of an evening in our small house without having to move the furniture to set up a board and rather than vegitate in front of the TV, and I enjoy the events. All major considerations after a pretty hefty healthscare and change of lifestyle last year.
I don't enjoy this.

If you're worried about your communities, don't drive the community away. Rather, leave the ego's at the door.

We may be forgetting why we do this.
So effing what if someone on the internet is wrong

[Olaf the Stout]

nonumber, you do realise that the US BB guys hang out on the Zlurpee forums, Spanish BB players have their own forum, etc.

I don't think forcing everyone onto one forum is necessary.

Olaf the Stout