Help me rank the teams

[nick_nameless]

But not from who is best to who is worst.

NOTE: I appreciate those that want to help me here. If you are not one of those folks, please accept that I don't need your opinions or reasons on if this makes sense. Thanks, but really, keep those thoughts for you.

From what team is bashiest to what team is dashiest. I am ranking them Bash 1-8, Hybrid 9-15, Dash 16-24

NOTE: In the end I am trying to make 3 boxes of 8...so if you think one should be bumped up then I need to know what you would bump down in response please. The goal for me is best approximation. I recognize that there will not be an absolute answer.

A moment from Captain Obvious...
Bashiest: which teams rely on hitting, making casualties, knocking opponents out, creating space with blocks, holding position, etc., to win their games.
Dashiest: Which teams rely on high movement, high agility, ball handling, stealing the ball, quick scoring to get KO'd player back, move around formations, etc.
Hybrid: Which teams rely on a real mix of hitting and ball handling, or have to be a bit more creative in how they create opportunities on the pitch.

I am looking at some different league and tournament formats that take this information into account. For instance, in a league I am looking at having 3 pools of teams, one Bash, one Dash and one Hybrid. During each league week, each pool will be directed to seek opponents from either their own pool or one of the other pools. That will create three possible pool match-up scenarios

1 - Bash plays Bash, Dash plays Hybrid
2 - Dash plays Dash, Bash plays Hybrid
3 - Hybrid plays Hybrid, Bash plays Dash

Some history: In my local league we try to run a fixed schedule. we determine how many teams are going to be participating in the league and how many weeks the league will run. Then someone sets a schedule, trying to take into account coach ability, team ELO (from OBBLM), any existing record the team might have from previous seasons (it is a perpetual league, but we have some mechanics for bringing in new teams). This system is pretty good, but inevitably we end up running way behind schedule because one match or another does not get played within the allotted time slot (typically each 'week' is actually 2 weeks, 3 if the 'week' is around a major holiday like Thanksgiving or Christmas). This makes a mess as some people keep their schedule and then end up waiting for others that have not.

I am trying to come up with a concept that is more free flowing, but that also puts some controls in place to keep coaches from cherry picking non-bashy opponents. I could just do 2 groups, but either way this ranking will help me put up a dividing line somewhere.

Off the top of my head I would put it something like this, going from a bashy style of play into a hybrid style of play and then into agility ball:
B1 - Khemri - The only team with no AG3 players or better on the roster without improvement rolls. They may not be the best bashy team, but they need to grind probably more than any other team
B2 - Chaos Dwarves - Following the theme with the Khemri, these fellows need to win the attrition war to win games.
B3 - Dwarves - See Chaos Dwarves
B4 - Orcs - Orcs start getting access to more AG3 players and they are they have an OTS option so long as they have a live Goblin and an available troll
B5 - Nurgle - Perhaps they should be a little higher on the list, but their style of play is not always as reliant on hitting as it is controlling space and manipulating the other team's movement, ball handling options and ability to choose where they will throw blocks and blitzes.
B6 - Chaos - Of course as teams get developed Chaos becomes the king of the bashy teams, but early on they have a full roster of AG3 players, no Block skill and can develop some nice ball handling options. This team can make good with a few styles even though going straight killer is probably the most effective.
B7 - Ogres - So, this is where this kind of ranking starts to get a little difficult. I am thinking about Undead, Necromantic, Norse, Chaos Pact and Lizardmen at this point. I am choosing Ogres because they really depend on their six ogres doing their thing, being able to sustain hits with their S5 and tons of guard/stand firm. They are not fast or agile and will generally bonk and bump their way down the field in their ogre cage, with some Snotlings running round and playing interference. OTS option.
B8 - Undead - Undead round out the Bash group over the other choices because of the Mummies. Having those 2 S5 pieces with no negatraits and Mighty Blow to start helps this team rack up the kills as quickly as most teams out of the box. Faster than some above them on this list, but they also have the Ghouls as kind of a soft underbelly spot, but then the 4 available Ghouls are MA7 and this almost pushes the team into the Hybrid group.
H9 - Norse - Just miss the cut in the Bash group and mainly because of all of the AV7. They have to be more careful about how, when and where they mix it up, and can't step up to let the other guy take shots at them the way Dwarves and Orcs can. They have some 7 movers like Undead but aren't as likely to rack up those casualties in the early going.
H10 - Chaos Pact - 3 Big Guys with Mighty Blow off the cuff, Mutation access on normal rolls for the Marauders along with GSP allows for very versatile builds, An Ag4 piece, a MA7 piece, a Goblin for OTS tosses. This team is tough to position on the list, but they are here because of their versatility
H11 - Necromantic - These guys can play speed or they can knock you on your tail. 2 Claw pieces available as rookies that are MA8, 2 MA7 Ghouls, 2 MA6 Wights with Block and S access, 2 Flesh Golems that Stand Firm out of the Box. This team is really capable of playing along both play styles. They are on the bashier end of the Hybrid group because of the claw access to start.
H12 - Lizardmen - Half of the team is big, strong and well armored and half is small and weak and fast. The Lizardmen need more positioning than bashing in order to be successful because they need to protect the skinks and give them a beachhead into the opponent's territory from which they will launch scoring plays. Break Tackle is very often a first skill for the Sauruses, and that tells me that movement and positioning trump hitting.
H13 - Vampires - This is a tough team to put on this scale. It is here because the team has 6 really mobile S4 pieces that gain SPPs fast. They will have a few hitters and make their casualties, and Vampires are very durable being S4 AV8 Regen and often becoming Blodgers within a couple of matches.
H14 - Goblins - 2 trolls, often inducing a third, a Fanatic, a Looney, a Bombadier, and chances to induce one more of each and cheap bribes to keep them on the field. This team can do some damage, is has the OTS option, it has the Pogoer to leap away to safety, almost everyone dodges and is stunty. Goblins are tricky to play, loads of fun, and generally get killed as much as they kill.
H15 - Underworld Pact - Mutation access is nice on a normal role and allows for this team to make some killer pieces early. The Goblins here are worth developing with two heads and horns to make your opponent constantly wonder what hit they need to defend against. Decent speed with the Skaven. Too much S2 to be higher on the Bash list.
H16 - Halflings - Ok, ok, stop laughing. Where would you put Halflings? They aren't exactly playing the Agility game with Elves, they don't have Gutter Runners or Slann Catchers. Humans or Amazons could take this slot as the last Hybrid team, but I picked Halflings for a few reasons. 1) They will very often be fielding 2 trees plus another big guy or even another 2 big guys. 2) They are too slow to be a "Dash" team. 3) They have lots of OTS options every time they have the ball. 4) They really need to knock you down with trees and foul the crap out of you. This is the only team where you could realistically see 3 S6 pieces and a S7 piece on the field, with the team inducing Deeproot and Morg 'n Thorg. That's a good amount of Mighty Blow on the pitch with some nice opportunities for 3 die blocks.
D17 - Amazons - The slowest Dash team, but everyone dodges out of the box and the team comes with positionals that have skills relevant to their positions (Pass for the Thrower, Block for the Blitzer, Catch for the Catcher). The whole team is AV7 so they mostly want to avoid mixing it up. No access to a big guy. Can't always rely on the dodge skill with AG3 and does play more of a Hybrid style.
D18 - Humans - Lots of the same characteristics as the Amazons, but they are faster. Up to 4 MA8 players, but at a sacrifice of team strength.
D19 - Slann - Slower than most of the teams left, but leap everywhere to shorten distances. Leap is a blessing and a curse. No basic skills, and the Blitzers allow the team to have some versatile players. Those catchers are really something with a few skills.
D20 - Skaven - Gutter Runners. 'Nuff said.
D21 - Dark Elves. Slowest of the all AG4 teams, but with the most hitters.
D22 - High Elves - Best armored of the AG4 teams.
D23 - Wood Elves - Wardancers and a treeman makes the woodies a bit more bashy than the plain old Elves.
D24 - Elves - Nerves of Steel catchers. Go ahead and mark me.

That's my list with my thoughts. Things get murky in the middle, of course.

Thanks for reading and for any thoughts you have to add on the matter.

[Heff]

Zons are a bash team. no big guy but a bash team

[nick_nameless]

Zons are a bash team. no big guy but a bash team

I don't want to be difficult about this because I appreciate the response...but only 8 teams are going to qualify for the Bash group. Which would you bump?

[Kikurasis]

I'd move Amazons and Norse up into the bash. To me, the bash are teams that require getting numerical superiority over their opponents in order to win, and because they move slower (generally) and have hitting skills, they need to be considered bash.

Ogres may require that, but they don't necessarily do it via hitting -- they get people down with the Ogres and foul with the snots. And, of course, try to not get snots hit. I'd consider them hybrid.

I'd probably even move Undead to hybrid, as they have 6 AG3 players that all can handle the ball, and generally do. They don't need to get a numbers advantage, as they can just move forward slowly, but they have speed and options to either pass. I think they are more bash than hybrid, personally, but since you are only allowing 8 teams in bash, these guys fall out of the top 8 for me. In fact, Chaos Pact is the same for me -- a bash team, but not in the top 8 for 'bashiness'.

[nick_nameless]

I play an amazon team on the table top (only 11 games, but at 6 wins, 3 draws and 2 losses I feel like I have an ok handle on them), and I am trying to get my mind around them as a pure "bash team". To me they are more of a hit and run, go for optimal contact, and avoid manning up on the opponent kind of team. Av7 everywhere. They fly off the field if another bash team gets a grip on them, and so to me they really can't be a true Bash team.

I understand they need to do some hitting and mentioned as such (really I consider them more of a hybrid team, but with only 8 in each box I had to figure who was more of an AG based play style).

Help me correct my thinking here...because I am really not seeing it.

[Heff]

they have dodge but they aint a dodge team. dodge is there to keep them on their feet and negate some of their breakability. how can they be dash when they only move 6? I also think Ogres are more hybrid than Bash, I kind of see them as unreliable lizardmen. Strong saurus with bonehead and really inferior, weak slow unarmoured skinks.

[nick_nameless]

they have dodge but they aint a dodge team. dodge is there to keep them on their feet and negate some of their breakability. how can they be dash when they only move 6? I also think Ogres are more hybrid than Bash, I kind of see them as unreliable lizardmen. Strong saurus with bonehead and really inferior, weak slow unarmoured skinks.

I agree with what you are saying regarding their speed, and that was one of the tough things about doing this.

My first thought is to swap Amazons for Underworld Pact because of the speed difference, the team strength difference, and Underworld's access to mutations that can make them the superior ball handling team.

So your thought would be to move Ogres to Hybrid, Amazons to Bash, and who to Dash?

[Darkson]

Whoever you move, you're going to end up with team in the "wrong" bracket, and there's always going to be someone that will argue that "there's no way A shold be bash, they're hybrid all the way" etc.
I think your best bet is to go to your own league and ask them. It might not be "correct", but will be something they're happy with.

[nick_nameless]

Whoever you move, you're going to end up with team in the "wrong" bracket, and there's always going to be someone that will argue that "there's no way A shold be bash, they're hybrid all the way" etc.
I think your best bet is to go to your own league and ask them. It might not be "correct", but will be something they're happy with.

I have a thread going on our league website. I was just looking for some additional opinions

You are absolutely right, though. There is no perfect solution to the problem. The comments on Amazons definitely have me thinking that maybe I need to tweak the list to account for them, moving them into Hybrid and another team (probably Underworld) into Dash.

[burgun824]

This was not easy because it's very subjective. Without getting into my reasons though this is how I would rank them. We could argue back and forth about what their rank should be but I think this gets them into the proper brackets.

1 - Khemri
2 - Nurgle
3 - Chaos Pact
4 - Chaos Dwarf
5 - Chaos
6 - Orc
7 - Dwarf
8 - Ogre
--------------------
9 - Norse
10 - Undead
11 - Amazon
12 - Goblins
13 - Halflings
14 - Human
15 - Vampire
16 - Necromantic
--------------------
17 - Lizardmen
18 - Underworld
19 - Slann
20 - Dark Elf
21 - High Elf
22 - Wood Elf
23 - Elf
24 - Skaven

[nick_nameless]

Good stuff. Whether or not I might agree, this is the kind of thinking I am looking for

[Hitonagashi]

From Burguns, in a short term league:

Move Undead into the Bash tier, and Ogres into the hybrid.
Move Lizardmen into the hybrid and Goblins into the agile.

Aside from that, it looks okay.

[Hawk]

Lizards as a dash team? These are in the type H to me.

Dark elf are also Type H

Switch these 2 with Goblins & Halflings.... These may have big guys & weapons but their game plays are
TTM and dodging through zones making them a D..

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Lizardmen are the bashiest team...

Also Chaos and Nurgle are both hybrid on account of being unable to bash effectively untill well developed.

[txapo]

Vampire are not bashie at all, actually are the less hiting team, I would change their position either with underworld (which can be dead bashie) or Lizardmen.

Indeed vampire is the team that can score easily in the oponent drive with no bash at all. Just a luckie bounce after blocking into the cage.

While underworld with three claw mighty blow guys can become deadly!! and an hibrid as the ball handing is quite quick!