Dobby Bowl 12/13th January 2013

[Pipey]

Feedback request!

With reference to point 6(d) of the NAF Tournament Approval Document:

"[Rules] modifications should not radically affect the existing balance between races; incentives may be given to the traditionally less-competitive teams, provided this is in moderation"

Do coaches feel that Dobbybowl went too far in this respect. In particular were the additional skills for stunties and the tier 3 teams (humans, slann etc.) too much of an advantage vs. the skills allowable for tier 1? Does this put gobilns, ogres, chaos, humans, undead, dwarves etc. all on the same level in a way that would radically affect the balance between the races?

I approved Dobbybowl so no slight on Dobby's rules. However I thought it would be an interesting experiment. Based on this admittedly small sample size, what do people think? All opinions welcome from Dobbybowlers and non-Dobbybowlers alike

[Dobby]

I think that i put humans in the wrong tier and also maybe gave T3 too much, as for the stunties they still didnt become as competitive as i thought they would even with the amount of skills given.I think although the skillset was a little more extreme than the norm i wouldnt go as far to say it made a "Radical" effect but i would say it made a "Moderate" effect. (excluding humas as they where radical imo). Also with very few coaches taking T1/2 teams it was difficult to reflect on all possibles, with only 1 T1 race in attendance and that team coming 3rd overall 5/1/1 result means imo that the skills did not radicaly change things. im just waffling now been on 12 hour nights maybe i should go to bed lol

[Heff]

Nobody brought Dwarves! made the tournament great. My games were most affected by the chameleon Dobby which gave me a seventh real player, but was also instrumental in several of my defeats. the tier 4 skills made playing Ogres much less frustrating but I still got torn apart by both of the elves and the human I played. To be fair those coaches were way out of my league as well so it wasn't about the ruleset.

[Russo]

Well enjoyed the weekend and event. Thanks to Dobby and all you guys. 3-1-3 with a 110 rosta is not bad. Mocking is permissible.

@Pippy.... I have no problems with the balance of the tournament. Did not feel that any if my games were a mismatch, other than getting Goo as a first round oppo.....deffo a serious flaw there

[stanrichardson]

I agree with Dobby, with one one T1 power gamer in the mix its hard to tell if things went to far.

But for both Humans and Slann the mix of the 1.15 cg, 7 singles, 2 doubles, and the dobby, gave them all the toys and tricks, with no comprimise.

The results speak for themselves with 2 slann, woodies, humans making the top four.

Some me its some fine tuning, dropping the gc, or the skills, or changing teirs.

[Leipziger]

+1 to what has been said by Dobby and Stan, although I think only humans were the only team that really stood out as being obviously in the wrong tier. The issue with the Slann was that 2 of the best coaches at the tourney took them

Some minor tier tweaking should do the trick +/- dropping the tv slightly as Stan suggests.

[Don__Vito]

Just to go over the same ground some more, I think it was a combination of the 1.15m team, the stacking of skills (Nothing wrong with skill allocation IMHO), and the extra 'Dobby' player all at once.

When I made my team allowing me to stack gave me three absolutely crucial players on my team. If it where seven singles and two doubles on nine players the team would still have been good, just not as solid. The 1.15m allowed me to have my cake and eat it, and also allowed me to take the best possible eleven players with an apo and excess rerolls with the knowledge I get an extra player (Dobby) on top of all of that.

Remove any one of those three things and I think that normal tiers would have been more represented, but as it was I think everyone looked at the rules pack and went for something from Tier 3 or 4.

I thought it was great seeing so many teams we don't normally see, and I'd love a rerun with exactly the same rulespack to be honest. Everyone knows how the rules affect teams, so everyone has the same advantage/disadvantage. Wouldn't want every tourney run this way but one or two a year is fun for me.

In answer to Pippy's question, I don't think it had the radical effect on teams balance that is the problem, but it did have a significant effect on most teams.

[Purplegoo]

I don’t think it’s ever possible to draw firm conclusions from one running of any rulespack. One set of results is not proof; and the plural of anecdotes from a weekend isn’t data. However, I’ll chuck my two penneth in anyway.

This isn’t the most bonkers pack I’ve ever seen (WISB II holds that inglorious distinction), but I do think it’s pretty important that events like this remain the exception rather than the rule in future, I think that NAF rule is spot on. I think (on paper, it’s all personal gut feel) that Humans were the best team (full stop) in the rules. So in terms of directly answering Pippy’s question, I actually do think the usual tier structure was compromised. I’d really question whether some of the other traditional powerhouses could live with tooled up T3 races. I don’t think it was narrowed, I think certain teams jumped above half of T1.

The creativity drive we’ve seen in the community the last couple of years to narrow the gaps between tiers and make life interesting on a weekend is great. I’m sure we all looked at the Dobby rules and thought ‘Great, that gives me a chance to run x and not get hammered for seven games, that’ll be a novelty’, but I really hope it does remain a novelty. ‘Has it gone too far’ cannot be answered after one weekend, so I’d be inclined to do it again and build a bit of confidence before making a decision. I enjoyed myself a lot more than I thought I would (I had a fun bypass in 2001), the Dobbies were actually a pleasant surprise. One suggestion I liked for future Dobbies would be a random roll on the crap player chart (Hobbo, Snotling, Rotter…) and a roll on the crap skill chart to go with it. Fend Thrall? Break Tackle Snotling? Right Stuff Nurgle Warrior?

Anyway, anyway, enough rambling.

[peo2223]

Had an excellent time,especially my last game...it comes to something when ur opponent is screaming "pile on" in chorus with you!

As for the rule set, thought the humans were in the wrong tier and there was perhaps one too many double skills, but it came down to good coaches and not good teams who were at the top.

Much fun for first away tournament, hope to see you all soon

[Pug]

Well....even though my flings were tooled up...they were really forced to the back foot by everyone else teams being deadly as well.
Usually the skill setup feels alot closer when playing, but as stated before I agree that the large 115 tv made any slight chance of even a draw far from the flings reach. A tweek on skills and maybe 110 tv may keep the Dobby nuts...but not insane!

[Pipey]

Thanks for the thoughts guys.

I kind of agree that various factors leveled the playing field. I certainly felt my games against Slann and humans (using tier 1 woodies) were very close. Humans were particularly strong with a scary ogre, a hatful of guard and a well tooled killer (MB/PO or MB/tack) or two.

I think this is as far as we should take the incentivisation for the lower tiers. Dobby is considering a few tweaks to narrow the gaps a little. Hope he doesn't change things too much as the tournament was a definite success.

[Dobby]

ok ideas on this just a quick idea at work....

TV 110, 2 skill stacking max, no same skill cap

T1, Zons, woodies, undead, lizzies and dwarf
T2, skaven, darkies, chaos dwarfs, norse and orc
T3 Humans, Necro, High and pro elf
T4 vamps, chaos, pact, underworld, slann, khemri
T5 ogre goblin flings

skills

T1 5 singles
T2 5 single 1 double
T3 6 singles 1 double
T4 7 singles 2 doubles
T5 6 singles 4 doubles 2 + ag stunties

dobby
1 snotling + diving tackle
2 halfling + dirty player
3 skink - 1 mv
4 hobgoblin + kick
5 slann lineman
6 chaos beastman
7 vampire
8 necro werewolf
9 tomb guard
10 loony
11 ghoul
12 mega dobby - dobby becomes a master changeling and each coach can choose any of the 11 above and dobby will become that player for the duration of that match, so 2 coaches can have differing dobbies for this match

let me know your thoughts people is this a little better or is there still things that need tweaking etc cheers dobby

[Pug]

Sounds mental enough for me...
Maybe...
T1 4 singles
T2 5 singles.

[Heff]

Did you mean Skink +mv?
Also how about mega dobby being something insane like a clmbpo beast or a +AGstripball dancer, something really stupid and gamebreaking.

Was really worth the trip up, hopefully I can make next year and not be recovering from a cold

[Pipey]

Tiering and skills looks good. 110 would work, though I think 115 was ok.

For the Dobbies, thinking about it I'd be inclined to keep the same formula and same set of Dobbies. After all we only saw 7 out of 12 this time. Sometimes it's possible to embellish too much when things are already working well. Why change a winning formula? Consistency can be a good thing... Just an opinion as a Dobbybowl attendee - NAF approval wise there's nothing to prevent you from mixing up the Dobbies