Discuss Fantasy football-style board games - GW's Blood Bowl, Impact!'s Elfball, Privateer Press' Grind, Heresy's Deathball, etc. THIS IS NOT AN NFL FANTASY FOOTBALL SITE!
Hitonagashi wrote:Okay, now I really want to try them. Hito`s Law of Forum Bloodbowl...anyone who says you have to pass is talking rubbish. I will concede however that this is a new team...
Hito - I would agree that you don't have to pass with Khorne, but you need to develop a relatively secure method of scoring in 2 and 3 turns. I was hoping to develop a "fast" Runner (MA7, S-Hands, Dodge, maybe K-Ret at some point), but in the absence of such a player, a passing game is very much suggested by the way the team has played in practice so far. Perhaps the issue will be decided for most coaches by the early stat increases that the team gets (especially +AG and +MA).
spubbbba wrote:You know every time you quote that to justify agility access I may have to post this from the same description.
"Rippling muscles lie barely concealed beneath the Bloodletter's scaly red hide, knotted sinews that give the Daemon strength sufficient for its jet black claws to pierce the most unyielding of armours."
That's the beauty of fluff - you can take from it whatever your imagination sees as relevant
spubbbba wrote:You know every time you quote that to justify agility access I may have to post this from the same description.
"Rippling muscles lie barely concealed beneath the Bloodletter's scaly red hide, knotted sinews that give the Daemon strength sufficient for its jet black claws to pierce the most unyielding of armours."
That's the beauty of fluff - you can take from it whatever your imagination sees as relevant
The Bloodletter's description is more than just the paragraph. Get a look at the official Bloodletter models or the the WFB profile and tell me what his BB ST should be. Hint: not 3.
Why does the roster have to be Khorne? Khorne are already represented by two different rosters, and this doesn't feel Khornate. "Tactical chainpushes for the Blood God!" just doesn't have much of a ring to it. Why not Savage Orcs or some other Frenzy-intensive roster that doesn't thematically scream for ST? Orcs without BOBs, with lots of AV8/Thick Skull and lots of Frenzy but only a little Block: that would be a fluffier way to do the same thing, probably more playable, and given the temptation to make most of the non-Frenzy players Stunty, might be more fun.
Reason:''
What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
It being a rainy day here, I did a couple of quick playtest games against myself, Khorne vs. Chaos Dwarfs. I picked CDs because they are the bash/slayer team that I know best.
Game 1 was at TV175 before FF, so 2 skills on all the positional players, Linos took 0, 1 or 2 skills. Took the Bloodhirster, 2RR, 13 players, vs. Minotard, 14 players, 3 RR (same TV). It produced a lopsided match, won 2-0 by the CDs, who received, did a mobile 8-turn grind for a 1-0 lead at hallf-time. Then the Khorne team failed a catch in the end zone, the hapless Receiver got surfed, the CDs recovered the ball and ran it back the length of the pitch. The CDs won the CAS 4-2, more importantly they won the KOs 9-1 (not quite as bad as it looks, several of these were self-inflicted KOs at the end of the match). The Bloodthirster did little, he got 2 stuns in the first half and a CAS on turn 9. He spent 3 or 4 turns on his arse doing nothing after piling on, he made I think 1 block and 3 blitzes in the first half (apart from the first turn he was out of the play, so could only blitz at the expense of his team not attacking the ball). The Minotard did better, with his prize effort being to CAS the Bloodthirster on turn 9 (Regen failed). Khorne got to the second half with a full complement on the pitch, but the game was effectively over by turn 11.
Game 2 was with rookie teams at TV100, using my standard starting rosters (2H, 3BL, 6PF, 3RR vs. 1BC, 6CD, 6HG, 3RR). Abandoned the game at half time as Khorne were winning too easily (TDs: 2-0, CAS: 5-0. KOs: 2-1). They won the kick-off and also got a Perfect Defence, both of which no doubt helped.
Not sure what this shows, apart from that our lovely hobby is a game of dice! However, I think there are some learning points (for me anyway):
- It looks to me like the playstyle and development strategies of "slayer" and "non-slayer" Khorne will be radically different, like 2 completely different teams. More extreme than other teams with this dichotomy (e.g. Nurgle).
- I will not say that playing Khorne as a slayer team is not possible, but I suggest this style will require greater skill and precision than most slayer teams. I will let others with more slayer experience blaze the trail here.
- I am now convinced that Khorne require 3 RRs (and from the start).
- The Bloodthirster is a good Wild Animal, but he is still a Wild Animal. Good luck with that, those of you who take him!
mattgslater wrote:Why does the roster have to be Khorne? Why not Savage Orcs or some other Frenzy-intensive roster that doesn't thematically scream for ST?
Because GW and/or Cyanide/Focus said so - 'nuff said.
Smeborg wrote:Then the Khorne team failed a catch in the end zone,
That's Khorne taking his revenge on you playing in an non-Khorne way.
Reason:''
Currently an ex-Blood Bowl coach, most likely to be found dying to Armoured Skeletons in the frozen ruins of Felstad, or bleeding into the arena sands of Rome or burning rubber for Mars' entertainment.
I have yet again revised my development plan, to prioritise basic skills (Block, Dodge) and to bring back Dauntless into the mix. Not since Nurgle have I played a team with greater difference between theorybowl development and practical play.
The need for basic skills means there will never seem to be enough Tackle nor Dauntless, and Guard will be in short supply for a while. But I expect that this will be made up for by a better blocking game, decent mobility and protection.
Overhamsteren wrote:Did the bloodthirster have mighty blow? Not sure I would take pile on anyway, mighty blow+guard sounds good.
Yes, I gave him M-Blow and P-On. I know that P-On is not a good idea on Wild Animals, but I wanted to see what happened in practice. He only Piled On if it gave him a clean +1 injury roll following a stun. To balance the teams, I took the Minotard for the CDs, and gave him Jugs + P-On. The 'Tard did better than the Thirster, I think because he fitted better into a team with lots of M-Blow (I gave the CDs M-Blow + Guard). I think if I took the Thirster in a league or tourney I would not bother with P-On, in line with your thinking, although I would probably take S-Firm before Guard. However, if you don't take P-On on the Bloodthirster, then the side looks unlikely to get all that many direct CAS (2 x TacklePoMb Heralds at 4 skills apiece at the expense of Guard, plus Claw/M-Blow on the Big Guy at 1 skill). That doesn't worry me at the moment, I'm not going down the killy route.
Smeborg wrote:Then the Khorne team failed a catch in the end zone,
That's Khorne taking his revenge on you playing in an non-Khorne way.
lol. On that basis the way I play most teams would see me arrested for crimes against the fluff. IIRC, I had just had 3 Pit Fighters stunned, and another knocked down, so with 7 effective players vs. 11, I was quite pleased to find a decent scoring attempt. This is actually very typical of Khorne, since they can't get players out of contact with the opposition, they have to make a scoring play with whatever players are left. It might be a hand-off or a pass (more rarely a run), but it tends to be a bit wild. Not for the faint-hearted.
5th competitive league game, this time against rookie Lizzies (not unfair, remember I still do not have Block, Dodge or S-Hands). My opponent is very experienced with Lizzies, it's his preferred team. He took Hemlock (a royal pain as usual) and 2 Dirty Trick cards (I tried to persuade him to take a Merc Saurus, but to no avail).
Result was a nailbiting 2-1 win to Khorne, despite a ridiculous CAS count (7-0 in my favour). Khorne received, picked up a Spiked Ball, made a pass on turn 2 which was dropped, stunning the catcher (a Bloodletter). Ball scattered to the ST4 Bloodletter, who caught it (mercifully), got sacked, but Khorne recovered to score on turn 3. Lizzies then got a lucky equalising score when an easy surf attempt on their ball carrier failed (2 GFIs required, Herald fell over despite RR). Second half: Khorne turned over the Lizzies (now running out of players), got sacked in turn by a Hemlock stab, recovered for a turnover score and the lead. Then the Lizzies nearly scored thanks to a wild passing play in blinding sun to Hemlock, but the ball spilled (inaccurate pass), Khorne put 4 TZs on it, Hemlock failed his pick-up, Khorne were lucky to recover the ball after it was thrown into the crowd, a naked 3+ dodge and pick-up were required, otherwise the last Skink was waiting to scoot in for a TD.
I had considerable good fortune in this game. Won the kick-off for the 5th game in a row, got many CAS and a few KOs (the Lizzies did not even get a KO despite many armour breaks). Although I had no Block or Tackle, I found that I could bring down Skinks when I needed to by using 4/6/9-die blitzes. First block of the game (3-die blitz on Hemlock) was a triple pow (KOd him, but he came back to be a pain for the rest of the matc, luckily for me he only got 2 or 3 stuns with his stabs).
A wild and entertaining game, interestingly Khorne were not able to hold the ball and stall, even when well up on numbers. Guarder was quite handy on the LoS, otherwise the Pit Fighters were generally unable or unwilling to get out of contact with the Saurus, who knocked them down a lot, and who with "average luck" would have put several in the dugout.
58 retained SPPs after 5 games is decent, rather than spectacular, but note that development is very well rounded, especially for an AG3 team. I have found it easy to skill up players when needed (mainly by feeding them TDs, all players are much the same as receivers). Higher CAS count for the Heralds reflects their common use as blitzers, the same for the Bloodletters reflects using them to block on the LoS (and as secondary blitzers). 8 SPPs were lost on a retired Bloodletter (TD, MVP). Pit Fighters are thus naturally slower to skill up. I suspect that well-rounded development will be a typical feature of Khorne league teams. Note that the roster is complete, with 13 player and 3 RRs (+ Leader) I have left the door open to buying a 14th player or an extra RR later if I need to (but not both).
Frequency of games will likely slow down, as now that I have plenty of Block (well, 3 seems masses after playing 5 games with none), I don't think it's reasonable to play against rookie or near-rookie teams in our relatively young league. I suspect that the Khorne team will get relatively better with time, but that is only a hunch until we see what happens in practical play.
A considered first impression after 5 competitive league games and a similar number of test-bed games.
Khorne will appeal to adventurous, risk-taking coaches who have a good sight of the board and are able to assess multiple mid-level risk options. Not necessarily for the faint-hearted - coaches who want their team to perform in a set reliable way may prefer other races. Learning how to play the team is an enjoyable challenge, not unduly difficult, but certainly different. Like any team, they will have their feared enemies, they do not appear to like high ST or high AG teams very much, but they are not completely outclassed by them. They like to bully teams when they can, especially those with low armour. They like to score relatively quickly, they cannot hold the ball easily, but they are quite resourceful on defense. The team seems surprisingly resilient, especially once you have an Apoth and a reserve or two. Players are cheap to replace (Bloodthirster excepted). The team is relatively easy to skill up in a well-rounded manner, there are no obvious SPP hogs. A small number of stat increases will boost the side considerably. With an absence of "regular" starting skills, the biggest challenge will, I suspect, be team development.
A team that seems rather good at producing wild and entertaining games for both coaches.
[quote="Smeborg"]Khorne will appeal to adventurous, risk-taking coaches who have a good sight of the board and are able to assess multiple mid-level risk options. quote]
Definitely!
I caved in and started a new team with the Bloodthirster, 2 RRs, 1 Herald and 2 BLs (I think).
I played a couple of games, againt Chaos Dwarfs, Underworld and a couple of games against Lizards.
What can I say, the Bloodthirster was incredibly powerful, and has made it onto my starting roster permanently. Against Lizards and Bull Centaurs, he really comes into his own, Claw and Frenzy depitching players left and right.
Occasionally I would use the Herald to blitz when the situation called for it. But almost always I would use the BT. With AV9 and no Mighty Blow on the opponent's side, he could get in their face and come away unscathed. Altough he did get knocked out by some goblins which was embarrasing. He now has block and is a true monster now.
I've skilled up one BL with dodge as his first skill. It has come in useful a hell of a lot. I aim to keep them away from the frontline, so dodge made mose sense than block, and I have not regretted it. He has dodged his way to the Endzone more than once and is 2 spps away from his second skill
I'll write a blog when my league gets under way, and let you guys know how the team progresses (if you are at all interested).
