The real issue with the Khorne roster...

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:36 pm

There is the concern that "if it's in the CRP the NAF will use it". What if GW decide they want a SM roster*? Is there a point where you say "enough is enough", keep do you keep accepting what you're given? There's no guarantee a next team will have any external oversight.

* Unlikely I know, but this is GW. Insert any other team name you like here.

dsavillian · Post by **dsavillian** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:44 pm

Darkson wrote:There is the concern that "if it's in the CRP the NAF will use it". What if GW decide they want a SM roster*? Is there a point where you say "enough is enough", keep do you keep accepting what you're given? There's no guarantee a next team will have any external oversight.

* Unlikely I know, but this is GW. Insert any other team name you like here.

This probably deserves a different thread (don't they all?) but I would keep playing Blood Bowl as long as I still enjoyed the game.

I enjoy the game too much to be turned off of it by one roster, especially if said roster doesn't break the game. Unless that roster became the only viable team to play to win, there wouldn't be a reason for me to quit the game.

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:14 pm

Purplegoo wrote:Getting lumbered down the line with something horrendous because we roll over on a weak roster now is a genuine concern.

Really?

I'm glad that the NAF is considering the issue rather than making a snap decision. It reinforces my faith that they would apply the same process to all new teams.

However, I hope that they assess the roster on its own merits (including its tenuous "official-ness-ocity") rather than worry about some sort of doom scenario. It is absolutely possible for them to say "on balance, the Khorne roster is ok" and sanction it without automatically sanctioning every new roster ever. Like, the policy could be "wait and see and then sanction it if it fulfills criteria X, Y, and Z". One of those required conditions could very well be that "the roster isn't a steaming pile of unbalanced".

I'm not saying that the Khorne roster should be sanctioned. I just don't think it should be dismissed based on a completely different roster that doesn't even exist yet.

Podfrey · Post by **Podfrey** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:54 pm

Podfrey wrote:I think the question should be "what is people's REAL reason for not wanting it NAF approved?

I expect it's all part of a grand conspiracy Geoff.

I was referring to some people who don't like it because of the (lack of adherence to the) fluff, some who don't like it because of the people involved, some who don't like it because it was not tested by [insert personal choice of vetting group here], etc. As for your reason that "it was created by Cyanide", I was also pointing out that your reason wasn't strictly accurate

However I genuinely am baffled why very clever people (looking at you, Goo) should think that accepting a GW backed development of Blood Bowl is going to automatically open the door to having to accept everything else Cyanide in the future. And at the end of the day we're talking about having rankings on a pretty average powered roster, not whether to allow an uberOMGcallintheRoflcoptergetmetothechopperthisisfrikkinawesome (or whatever you cool kids say these days) roster. It's a bit of fun and a new way of playing. Is it really THAT bad?

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:32 pm

Podfrey wrote:However I genuinely am baffled why very clever people (looking at you, Goo)

Oi!

Remember the motto. Phil is an above average individual at best.

Purplegoo · Post by **Purplegoo** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:36 am

I've seen plenty of people, including you Geoff, lawyering this with some comment or other taken from some quote or set of guidelines likely written far in advance of this subject coming up that (no doubt) did not have this situation in mind. In your case, you have cited the NAF's 'Pre touurnament requirements' elsewhere as a reason this should be a gimmie (that certainly looks to be your implication). If you're living by that particular sword, you shall also potentially die by it in the future. Surely that must be clear?

Why on Earth should whatever comes next be treated any differently to this if your logic for allowing this team is 'GW are happy with it'? How the roster looks is not a fair criterion. Testing, community acceptance and it's source all are (or have been previously) and we're a good distance from (in my mind, I'm not Dave) being satisfied on those points. Quite rightly, the powers that be are taking their time.

You're too kind calling me clever, but if you do think that, perhaps you should give some creedance to the notion that how this roster is dealt with will cast the die for the future.

On (mainly) Silly’s point of ‘Well, this one’s fine, we’ll just assess future submissions and say no if they’re too much, how hard can it be?’; this is a nod to Joe’s other point about this situation in the OP.

If Cyanide (as an example) release four new rosters to shift units over the next two years (say) including Khorne, and some process that is set up accepts two and rejects two on the basis of roster strength or a change in rules, that’s all well and good for the NAF. FUMBBL might accept three and reject one, say. Cyanide would clearly have all four. Johnny Blogg’s TT league might have none, since they’ve never heard of BB on the internet or hate Cyanide, or whatever, Jane Blogg’s league all four because ‘GW say so, and who are the NAF to decide for me?’, and several shades of grey over 100 leagues in between. Suddenly, no-one knows what the rules to Blood Bowl are any more.

This makes the NAF’s life even harder; not only must common sense be applied, we risk the community all playing a different version of the game. Clearly, this is not a desirable outcome. Perhaps it’s simply easier to leave Cyanide as a sandboxed house ruled league or green light everything? Clearly that’s risky… Not easy, is it?

Manuel · Post by **Manuel** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:55 am

Finally a thread covering the big issue!

I fail to see the problem here. If we are already using house ruled, why not stablish definitely this rules?

Joemanji wrote:No legal reason, but a practical one. All tournaments are essentially house ruled, for example by using resurrection rules or 1.1m rosters (not to mention some of the crazy stuff in NA). So the NAF does not automatically use the rules exactly as GW publish them. But were GW to release CRP2 with added Khorne I can't imagine it would be possible to ignore it. The committee are elected officials and would surely be booted out if they chose to ignore what GW publish as the official BB rules.

Or perhaps, just maybe, the NAF have taken up a cautious 'wait and see' policy until reactions have been gauged and some playtest data (ironically from Cyanide I assume) has been collected. Underworld, Pact and Slann were not included lightly.

The NAF (and FUMBBL) do not follow Cyanide. When Cyanide released their original game we did not delete 16 teams from the game.

This part about the elected officials... why are you so sure they would be booted out if they chose to ignore what GW puslishes? By whom? It's just that what we are suggesting.

I have already said it in another thread, but if the only real menace GW can make is leaving us without the dices, so be it. It would be a little price to pay in exchange of a "safe" set of rules. The real danger is entering a position of vulnerability where GW could create confusion every X years.
On the other hand, why couldn't the NAF create an internal document for aproving new tems? Perhaps by creating a BBRC every time the situation required.

I think this thing (the NAF-Rules) could be important enough to make a referendum and ask the community wether they want to follow blindly GW, stay forever in the LRB 6, or whatever in between.

Shteve0 · Post by **Shteve0** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:03 am

You know what? You're spot on. Screw adding Khorne to the NAF rules, we can really show GW who's boss by adding a *different* team to the experimental roster list *instead*!

Apes of Wrath
0-16 Line Ape 50k 6337 Extra Arms G/ASP
0-2 Ape Thrower 70k 5338 Extra Arms, Big Hand, Strong Arm GP/AS
0-2 Ape Runner 80k 7337 Extra Arms, Wrestle GA/SP
0-4 Gorilla 80k 5428 Extra Arms, Grab, Wild Animal GS/AP
0-1 Silverback 130k 5519 Extra Arms, Grab, Wild Animal, Loner, Mighty Blow S/GAP
Rerolls 60k

Glad you like it

Now, when the time comes to revote in BBRC members, can I count on your vote?

Manuel · Post by **Manuel** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:07 am

I'm not a native english speaker, so I'm not sure if there's any sarcasm on it, sorry ^_^¡

Shteve0 wrote:we can really show GW who's boss by adding a *different* team to the experimental roster list!

By the way, I think it has already been done. Look at the slann. We wouldn't need to create a new team, only insist and include them in our rulebook.

Edit: Ey, now I see your roster. I like pretty much the apes... but I think the first thing that should be decided and clarified is that of the NAF-Rules. After that, be it apes, zebras or space marines, as long as they respect this already non existen rules.

Shteve0 · Post by **Shteve0** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:12 am

I think you just replied before I'd edited the roster in

But yes, there is a little sarcasm in there. Unfortunately I'm a brit, so I'm not sure I know how to communicate without resorting to at least a little sarcasm, irony or both

ssb · Post by **ssb** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:45 am

Yep, this is the big question.

Why are we considering not adopting the new rosters and new rules coming our way from GW ?

Because we all have heard about the evolution of GW's policy concerning Warhammer 40K and it's liberal aspect. (understand selling miniatures and adapting the rules to that end, and not trying to make the game better while selling miniatures)
Because we all have heard that GW has cut itself of from the players community, especially the Blood Bowl player community. (maybe I am wrong ?)

These two reasons make a chill crawl down my spine when I try to imagine what goal GW is pursuing now. While I will always hope they will do the right thing, for the moment, they have demonstrated their cynicism.
The ambiguity we are faced, is that the Khorne Roster could fit our loved game without destroying it.

See how the questions pop up in my mind :
- Has GW release Khorne Miniatures in the near past ?
- Will they follow WH40K or WHFB new ranges when they'll create new rosters ?
I am clearly considering they are doing it only to sell minis of for an agenda not linked to Blood Bowl itsef.

For the moment, the change is minor in itself. What is major, is that the "machine" has set itself in motion again, and seen how it's been working these past years, it's a bit frightening...

I would just say that we will have to wait and see...
Although I am not very optimistic about how all of this will turn out in the future, I will keep hoping GW will do the right thing.

About that Khorne roster, I really would not know what to do. In doubt, I would wait before integrating it.
Our league (Lutece Cup) begins in september, so the rythm makes it simple to wait for a year before considering it.
Maybe in that time frame, GW will show us what they are up to ?

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:55 am

Codex: Chaos Space Marines just released, and WFB Chaos and/or Daemon due this year or early next year.

Coincidence?

Podfrey · Post by **Podfrey** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:15 am

You're absolutely right Phil. You win. Well done.

Let's separate ourselves from GW completely and adopt an isolationist policy where Lord Lycos is the ultimate arbitrator of what's allowed to be NAF ranked (not the Tournament Director? Interesting....); let's banish any further creative development in favour of Olde Boys Networke and keeping things the same. Stuff those new players who have taken up Blood Bowl BECAUSE of Cyanide, they'll have to leave their Khorne team at home and bring one of OUR teams.

As for rules lawyering, I was pointing out that it shouldn't matter, but that was back in the halcyon days I thought the NAF was there to play with some toys and support Blood Bowl (in all its forms).

I hope you enjoy the victory. As for me? I'm going off to play me some Blood Bowl and try to forget this sorry affair......

Purplegoo · Post by **Purplegoo** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:23 am

I'm not entirely sure what has provoked that, but fine?

People can get passionate over this all they like, after all, it's their hobby. But steady on.

Manuel · Post by **Manuel** » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:23 am

Nobody has said nothing about "an isolationist policy where Lord Lycos... banish creative development... stuff new players." If that's sarcasm, it's pretty lame.

Why not try to be a little constructive and try to decide (or at least to understand) something about the nature of the NAF/GW relationship? I don't understand why it seems to scare some people.

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