Games Day anyone? (Now with added Khorne roster)

[Pakulkan]

First of all, I would thank Tom and other designers and playtesters. I thank every new addition to Bloodbowl that could be tried. Even better if it is well designed enough to be officialy playable in the future. More variety is never bad.

I tried to follow the thread but maybe I missed some points. I would comment to add my opinion about the roster:

Playstyle. This is not a problem for me. I mean Khorne has its own background in Warhammer, but in the same way Slann have and don't follow the WH representation in Bloodbowl. It is better for me to have a new roster with new gaming style more than a more bashing Chaos just because it is Khorne. As said, you could use this roster as Savage Orcs, Chaos Norse, etc.

Taking this into account, I found some decisions in the teams quite particular, and I would thank any Galak/other designer comment about them. If were previously addressed, sorry, I will search for the answer. This is not merely a critic, it is just a list of questions to know the why the roster is at it is.

Pit fighter name. Was an imposition from GW to continue having miniatures in range to supply the team? Other options were available I guess.

Bloodletters without Frenzy but Heralds do have. They are quite similar positionals (could be another question: why to have this very similar positionals splitted instead of making just 0-6 khorne daemons?).

Nurgle, Chaos Pact and Chaos are allowed to take mutations, even Chaos Dwarves. It seems to be a trademark of Chaos teams. Why Pit Fighters couldn't get Mutations at least? Instead of that they pick Pass. Sounds quite strange to me. I feel this team could play in open gaps in defense pretty well, and possibly Pass are potentiating this quite, but can't figure out how yet.

Shouldn't have the Big Guy at least ST like a Treeman?

Resume: I think would be interesting to have a little about the story of this team. I would appreciate so much personally. I have no issues with the nerfing/overpower of this team. Underworld seemed a very weak team for most at the beginning and I love play them, so I would first try to play Khorne and get the profit with them (I feel they have some dirty tricks there, just need to find them). But comments on why Heralds do not have ST4, why split bloodletters in two positionals... Is the most interesting thing in the desing more than the final roster (e.g. the two rosters addressed by Galak at the beginning of the design, the Cyanide's guidelines...) if it is possible/legal to comment that. It could be played in any way.

Thanks Tom & others!

[Don__Vito]

Out of interest, has anyone downloaded the CRP yesterday/today, to see if GW have slipped it in (I would, but I'm at work)?

Good shout. Just tried it, no Khorne roster there yet.

[Juriel]

Oh my god with the fluff raging.

What's more homicidal than Frenzy? Mission accomplished on the theme front!

[Pakulkan]

Pako i think its important to understand that the NAF cannot make any demands to GW in regards to bloodbowl. Bloodbowl is their game, they can make any amendments or additions that they like. GW are the only official word in regards to the game.

Hello robsoma.

My point is not that if NAF could demand anything to GW. I am realistyc enough to believe in Santa but not in GW hearing us.

I just wonder what if NAF just forget about GW to publish a "House Rules" Bloodbowl handbook following BBRC design. I do think House Rules are fully allowed by GW, sou what do you think community would follow?

I think is an important consideration. Today, NAF has more power and arguments inside Bloodbowl community than GW. So beside the dice block copyright NAF is not really needing GW at all (NAF CHAMP is booking the place, GW bastardize the LRB6.0...).

So, taking into account Cyanide is messing up with Khorne Team, maybe NAF word should be the one saying what is official or not in Bloodbowl, more than GW and their $$ eyes. As setted up in NAF forum, what if Cyanide decide to add an overhauling team without any consideration from BBRC or other designers and it is approved by GW just forgeting the Spacialist Games? This time we were fortunate that some experienced players participate in the design (and finally no one is pleased even). but this doesn't assure the rosters created by Cyanide will be fine in the future. And we all know that GW (AKA Monsterhammer) is not taking decissions in its games thinking on play.

I just want to consider if all we could fly below the radar and NAF could manage BB ruling as House Rules and that's it.

[Shteve0]

Okay, let's all settle down. This argument is becoming ridiculously polarised - each side calling the other out as either GW fanboys or Galak-haters. This isn't a U.S. presidential election! There's grey area here, we'd all do well to remember that.

I prefer to think that this roster would have been more predictable and far more awful without Tom's involvement. But asking Tom to feed into a process at the top, with or without heavy design restrictions, doesn't give you carte blanche to put out any old crap and expect it to be accepted without debate.

I don't see a problem with reasoned criticism. I'm disappointed not because I think it's sub-T1, or not "bashy", but because it's untidy - the names and skill access are haphazard and the entire concept has a half baked, top down look to it.

BB is extremely lucky to have Tom, GW has distasteful business ethics, and Cyanide are more interested in hoovering up your money than fixing bugs or making a proper playable version of your game. Those already anti-GW will refuse to put money into this, others will continue to "support the game". Plus ca change, plus ce la meme chose.

[Big A]

I like the look of the roster and look forward to trying it out.
But having said that I don't have any interest in the Gamesworkshop fluff at all. I just play Bloodbowl.

Thanks Tom and Co. for what seems like another fun addition to the game we all love.

[robsoma]

A noble goal pako, however im sure its not something the NAF woukd relish (just look at the grief galak gets)

As someone that can remember the fractured nature of the community that resulted from 4th edition and its house rules, i am really happy with the standardised single rules set that we now have.

[harvestmouse]

Also, I'll take a crack at fixing the "fluff" concerns some have:

Pit Fighters (Variant 1): In the BB world, I imagine the followers of Khorne love blood and violence so much that they participate in pit fights and gladiatorial games between Blood Bowl seasons to honor and please their god of violence. Why do they have access to Pass? I'm sure they've had all sort of experience hurling javelins and other throwing weapons in the pits and arenas, and a football is easy to throw by comparison.

Pit Fighters (Variant 2): In the BB world, Khorne demons force their followers and slaves to fight to the death to celebrate and honor Khorne. Those fighters that perform the best earn their freedom from the pits and are allowed to put their experience to use on the Blood Bowl pitch. Throwing weapons = Pass access as per above.


As for why are the lesser demons and "bloodthirster" weak compared to their "Warhammer World" versions, you can come up with dozens of reasons to alleviate your fluff-fears. Maybe the wizards' guild put powerful hexes around blood bowl stadiums so that only officially sanctioned and appropriately hired guild wizards are able to cast their magic to influence a game. This "hex" weakens the demonic aura of the bloodletters and "bloodthirster" avatar. Alternatively, there are a near endless other "fluff" reasons that could explain why these demons don't fit the GW fanboi's version of chaos daemons. Just use your imagination. Perhaps in the "BB World" Nuffle's power is so great that other celestial entities have been weakened in his presence. As such, the physical avatars that the Khorne-under-Nuffle's Mighty Shadow can muster are substantially weaker than what the unrestricted Khorne of the BB World can whip up.

Well congrats, this is the signature of a fanboy roster rather than a professionally produced one. Glad you're starting to see it for what it is. Make a roster how you see fit, then shoehorn in some dubious fluff, to support the gumf you've produced.

Here's one I spent just as much time on:
Dwarfs of the Golden Field
These Dwarfs brew a special beer that enables them to run fast, leap high and are as agile as a cat. MA12 ST 3 AG 4 AV9 Block, tackle, Thick Skull, Leap. (You can qualify anything you want with BS fluff easily, doesn't make it any easier to swallow, in fact it makes it harder due to the obvious source/hole it came from).

Very professional doing it this way around isn't it! If you use established fluff, use the parts of the roster that are necessary, then if something fits add it. If it doesn't, don't. Not change it ridiculously until it does, then make up some half-arsed fluff as an excuse for doing so.

[harvestmouse]

Out of curiosity, what were you (and other like-minded persons) hoping for?

Hmmmm I wasn't really sure what to expect, as it's such a hard concept to work with. From the original picture, you could see a human lineman and what appeared to be a Letter and a Thirster, so I expected.........Letters and Thirsters, which isn't what we got. I think they need killing neg traits and better stats.

My main complaint is how they are portrayed, it just isn't how they should be.

Hard concept+Terrible management+Crippling restraints+Lack of knowledge from Cyanide+unrealistic ripping and shoehorning=a bad roster for me.

I have no complaints about it's playability, power level or enjoyment factor. The problem is that's just half the story.

[dode74]

I think they need killing neg traits and better stats.

So vampires then?

[Quinto76]

I have no idea what a Khorne team should or should not be, I am just thinking along three lines;
1) Tom has had some input...seriously that is good enough for me.
2) Frenzy all over the shop and pass skills for linemen....cool a different team for us to have fun with.
3) Whatever way you look at it continued development in this game we all love. GW may ignore it, but I look forward to Greebo's Khorne miniatures!!!

Dean

+ 1 (especially point 3 )

Oh, and remember, BB is a game after all.

[garion]

no he is clearly not talking about vampires. As well you know. He just means the roster should be a RR heavy one with a strong emphasis khorne themes.

But what I think is funny is how people keep trying to defend their 'hero' Tom by saying- 'I couldn't give a stuff about fluff. It looks like a fun roster to play' I've seen this a number of times in this thread. And if you knew your hero at all you would know he was as passionate about the BB fluff as Harvestmouse, Darkson or I and many others. So this is a real slap in the face for him I'd imagine. Fluff is the corner stone of any RPG. When you play any team in Bloodbowl it should feel like you are really playing with that race. This works great with Lizardmen or wood elves or undead etc... it does not here.

The fluff should always be examined thoroughly prior to creating a roster and there is daemon of khorne fluff in the bloodbowl history and this team does not match it at all. Not going to go down the fluff route again as all my points were made a few pages earlier.

Dode keeps pointing out things like - 'no one wanted another bash heavy roster' and 'do you really want another T1 race'

I'd agree to a point. Yeah I'm happy its not a top tier race and it is clearly the right way to introduce a race to the game, but this team is clearly so bad I doubt anyone will be playing it in a years time.

And yeah the game didn't need another bash heavy race, but as Cyanide said Khorne will be the new team, it has to be bash heavy. It's what khorne are all about. The fact normal chaos or nurgle will be better bashers than khorne is ridiculous, even at rookie level I'd expect every team other than elves, vamps, skaven (maybe???), and the stunties to be better bashers than these. Also bash heavy doesn't have to be CPOMB. It can come in other ways obviously POMB in there and killer big guy. Interesting roster maybe??? Personally as a roster on its own I think it is very dull, but this is just not a Khorne roster, A and P access should not be anywhere near khorne. Also some St 4 players should be a must. etc... etc...

anyway, I'm done with this. It isn't worth spending my time on, it's just soo bad. I would honestly be ashamed to have my name associated with the roster, and I'm assuming there must have been extremely heavy constraints put on Galak's shoulders when creating this, and I can't for the life of me work out why he didn't walk away from the project and let it sink, it's just embarrassing.

[Manuel]

Hello robsoma.

My point is not that if NAF could demand anything to GW. I am realistyc enough to believe in Santa but not in GW hearing us.

I just wonder what if NAF just forget about GW to publish a "House Rules" Bloodbowl handbook following BBRC design. I do think House Rules are fully allowed by GW, sou what do you think community would follow?

I think is an important consideration. Today, NAF has more power and arguments inside Bloodbowl community than GW. So beside the dice block copyright NAF is not really needing GW at all (NAF CHAMP is booking the place, GW bastardize the LRB6.0...).

So, taking into account Cyanide is messing up with Khorne Team, maybe NAF word should be the one saying what is official or not in Bloodbowl, more than GW and their $$ eyes. As setted up in NAF forum, what if Cyanide decide to add an overhauling team without any consideration from BBRC or other designers and it is approved by GW just forgeting the Spacialist Games? This time we were fortunate that some experienced players participate in the design (and finally no one is pleased even). but this doesn't assure the rosters created by Cyanide will be fine in the future. And we all know that GW (AKA Monsterhammer) is not taking decissions in its games thinking on play.

I just want to consider if all we could fly below the radar and NAF could manage BB ruling as House Rules and that's it.

I totally agree with what Pakulkan has said. We don't even have to call it "official", if that creates confusion. The players from the NAF could just gather to play games amongst each other under the "NAF approved LBRX". So what? What could GW do about this? Forbid the free dices we get every year?

Personally, I would happily renounce to the dices if we could manage, control and standarize the rules in the tournaments. We could even arrange it to get the dices from another source. Does anybody really think that the GW desing of those dices is worth ruining the experience of travelling abroad and meet coaches who play a game with the rules both of you have freely accepted?

[dode74]

no he is clearly not talking about vampires. As well you know. He just means the roster should be a RR heavy one with a strong emphasis khorne themes.

It is. You'll need a lot of RRs to deal with all the frenzy, and frenzy most certainly is a major Khorne theme.

I disagree with you about many of the the fluff aspects. Sure, Bloodletters are S5 and T3 in WFB and some think that ST3 with AV7/regen is a bit low. Well, elves are T3 in WFB, and they are AV7 without regen in BB. And when all is said and done, when it comes to straight stats then so what? The player is not all about stats: skills make a massive difference to the basics in BB, more so that in WFB I would argue.

Out of the box the 6 lesser daemons are the best blitzers in the game (all get 2d blocks with only 1/36 odds of failure against any ST3 player), and the Bloodthirster is the best Big Guy in the game by quite a way. We're talking about a "race" which charges down the enemy and overcomes them, creating chaos while it does so, but is fairly fragile if they get bogged down toe-to-toe. Well, that's what this team does.

I get that it's not what you'd have made, but what you'd have made comes from your interpretation of the fluff. Some agree with your interpretation, others don't. This is what you have.

[robsoma]

We already have a standardised rule set and dont need another.