Games Day anyone? (Now with added Khorne roster)

[Ithilkir]

Meh I don't really see anything wrong with the team in it's power bracket (and tbh not like I get much chance to play BB these days anyway) the only thing I don't like is the over reliance on non positional themed names.. Just feels too 3rd editiony to me. Don't see why it can't be Linemen, Blitzers, Blockers, Bloodthirster. If a demon plays in a blizting roll, it makes him a blitzer the same way we don't have "Human Blitzer, Orc Blitzer, Dwarf Blitzer".

Other than that.. if you don't like the roster, dont include it in the tournament/league.

[harvestmouse]

Yeah, I'm not impressed, in fact I'm disappointed. Generally I echo Ulvardar's and Darkson's comments, which are very well put. I feel Galak did a very good job of keeping the feel of the old Allstars, Creepers and 2nd ed Slann team, when converting them to CRP and I expected a similar job with Khorne.

Galak said "The Blood Bowl full is that the Khorne team is out of control ... THAT is the Blood Bowl fluff ... that is what we tried to mirror. If you are bring Warhammer fluff into this ... WHY? I didn't use Warhammer fluff when I built the Slann team, the Underworld team OR the Chaos Pact team ... so why in Nuffle would I start using Warhammer fluff to design a Khorne team. Maybe someone else would ... but then I'm not someone else."

If you had no intention of using Warhammer fluff, then why use Warhammer creatures? That's like saying 'Well I'll take a Dwarf from Warhammer and give it wings and MA10, it's ok, because I don't need to stick to established fluff'.

I appreciate there were constraints from Cyanide (the feeling I'm getting and seeing the roster they produced this project was doomed), however you can't take an 8ft muscle bound killing monster and make it easier to knock over and hurt than an average lino. If you use Warhammer things, convert Warhammer stats and fluff. What was done with the BloodLetters and Thirster I feel is a liberty and totally kills the roster.

I also dislike the name pit fighters. They're pretty similar to Marauders, so Skull God Marauders or Crimson Marauders maybe, so we knew the player type was basically the same but with a twist. Heralds seem a pointless positional, CWs may have been better. I can live with the no mutation theme, obviously it's a hint that there are problems with certain combos and we don't need anymore, but Khorne isn't a big mutater any way.

I also think Garion made some good points here "As you said Khorne are about killing and mayhem. Cant remember the full khorne team article from all those years ago, but I seem to remember Bloodletters playing on juggernauts killing every last player on the opposing team then steeds were banned from that point forth in bloodbowl. Also Remember 4th ed gold bloodthirster being a damn site better than a mino with juggernaut and av9. Now I would've hated it personally but at least it would have fit if you had a deathroller type juggernaut player in there with SW skill. Also I dont see much killing potential in this team, I see a lot of tactical surfing, tactical shouldn't be in Khornes vocab, just killing should be and they suck at it and their players are all very soft."

If someone said to me, what roster would be a roster all about killing and blood spilling. I'd shout "KHORNE", as Garion, noted this certainly isn't. I kinda like the mass frenzy, but the positionals are weak tarts in a flashy skill skirt. You can still see that boney ass underneath, not matter how many skirts you put on.

I believe this team needed a massive negtrait to balance it rather than weak unrealistic postionals.

I was thinking instability Blood lust-name changed + no thrall/no turn over/fails are placed in ko box. With this trait, it would have given you the opportunity to beef them up to what they should have been.

However it looks like the constraints put on by Cyanide, and their total lack of understanding doomed this project from the start. It isn't Khorne. BloodLetters/Thirsters aren't BloodLetters/Thirsters and I'm not even sure what a pit fighter is. They'd have been much better doing a Tzeentch or Slaaneshi roster. At least that would have given you half a chance.

Finally a few answers for what I feel is the most delusional post in the topic.

GW don't give a toss about BB or BB fluff so why should we.

If that's the case why use it? All the fluff here comes from GW, it's just been badly managed. Everything in BB comes from GW fluff. That should be a good reason. Their vision is established and critically successful. I don't know about you, but if you remove Orcs, Dwarfs and Chaos from BB, I have no interest in the game.

"I have no idea what a Khorne team should or should not be, I am just thinking along three lines;
1) Tom has had some input...seriously that is good enough for me.
2) Frenzy all over the shop and pass skills for linemen....cool a different team for us to have fun with.

So Galak has the right to produce any old tosh (not saying this is or isn't) and that's good enough for you? It isn't for me. With your lack of interest/understanding of the fantasy world BB is from I'm sure you'll be happy with any synthetic and shoehorned fluff that is produced.

"Hats off for making a 25th team that we probably did not need, as they are so different. Would we have all wished for another elf team or bash team variant 3+?"

Actually what is wrong with similar teams? The old adage "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" seems to work. If a roster model is critically acclaimed, what's wrong make a variation from it?

"Can everyone just stop moaning at new stuff, if you don't like it don't play it, but don't complain if"

Why? We wanted to play it. We were looking forward to it. Now it's here and we're disappointed, we miss out on something intended to use. Furthermore this is how things get improved, by critical valuation.

"1) You are a GW Warhammer fluff geek....if you are you are in the wrong universe."

Then so is this roster, because that is where it was lifted from. Also BB is set in the Warhammer universe, just as alternate one.

"2) You play against a frenzy passing bunch of lunatics that send half your team into the crowd and whip the lily white asses of your favoured team (or green if Orc etc)"

Probably not going to happen, but I don't have any real complaints about the mechanical playability of the roster. What most likely will happen is your frenzy boys will be tied up by said ST 4 ST 3 Block Orcs and you'll be too afraid to make the 1 die hits. Meaning this team may do less blocking than your average halfling team.

"Any development of BB is to be applauded especially semi official stuff so lets all just calm down and enjoy."

Finally we can agree on something. However this was a project that could have been so much better. If Cyanide didn't go to see in a boat made out of lead. If they didn't make crippling constraints. If they chose a theme that would have been easier to work with. If the design team respected and replicated the fluff they tore from the Warhammer Universe.

[deanup]

Blimey Harvestmouse you signed up here in January and waited 9 months to bounce on my post, what is that all about????

I am just being positive about a game I have played for 20 years and truly love, why are you picking the bones apart from my comments, and Tom's efforts.

Bit confused by your motives, you have posted a well thought out constructive and detailed post, but why now?

Dean

[deanup]

Hah hah I've got it...you are Voodoomike in disguise!!!!

[Darkson]

No he's not - Mike's got an account here, and Harvestmouse posts regularly(?) on FUMBBL.

[harvestmouse]

Hah hah I've got it...you are Voodoomike in disguise!!!!

I really like TFF for the resources, generally I don't see it as my place to get involved in the discussions. To use the site efficiently I joined after a fair bit of lurking/resource pinching.

Pretty funny you thought I was Voodoomike, I'm sure he'd find it funny too. I have little interest in the topics he get's involved in (stats, computer software etc) nor much knowledge.

This topic however has really hit a nerve, I'm bitterly disappointed with something I had a lot of hope for. As Galak posts here rather than there or over there, I wished to express my views.

[Megr1m]

Out of curiosity, what were you (and other like-minded persons) hoping for?

[Darkson]

No Pass access on normal rolls.
Personally, I'd like to have seen No Hands on the Daemons.

[Digger Goreman]

Finally read the thread... uh-huh... yeah... hmmmmmm....

Really surprised Tom would get involved after the last fubar with greedy w'nkers... but da Godfadda gots to do what the Godfadda gots to do....

Not surprised that people agree and disagree: Blood Bowl Stew....

Knowing that my opinion will get you a zombie every 6 casualties (barring use of an apothecary) and nothing more... here goes:

In an environment of spamilicious skill teams, ag4-trociousness, over-armored strength access teams, lineman-less teams, leap-foolishness, and forced spit from the desert... we need another chaos/spam team like we need another dorf, fairy, human, or spam team....

Add to this the futility of applying any meaningful energy to expanding the current rosters over gw's jealous "rights", as anything but "house" fixtures.... "The rules is the rules" and they is CRaP! This is enforced by the complicity of sNAFu suckling granny's teats and the complacency of the thousands(?) that support the quislings.... Much like the American voter: we pitch a fit but we accept the two-party system.... However, the only party here is the nasty ogre-nization that devours its own....

So Tom sticks his hand in the sausage grinder for love of the corpse... right-on... power to ya... I couldn't.... The man did what he could, under the system... props....

To the good man who said the game is "ours"... so wish that were true... but reference the paragraph on "futility".... Actually I'd look forward to the day when tournaments have their own uniqueness and the corporate banner isn't flown above venues like the pall of acid rain.... Wildcats are much more interesting than sheep.... On the positive side: maybe the day will come when the evil implodes or surrenders their ip to public domain and their sycophants wither away into the pits of their masters.... Then BB might get the renaissance it so richly deserves....

Dreaming of Utopia,

DG

[Darkson]

Out of interest, has anyone downloaded the CRP yesterday/today, to see if GW have slipped it in (I would, but I'm at work)?

[Stout Youngblood]

I always thought a team with the main thrust being Frenzy would be a cool edition ever since I saw the savage orc teams way back when. I think this is a interesting team and look forward to trying it out.

As far as fluff, someone above said BB takes place in an alternate Warhammer universe so why not a Khorne team with ST 3 bloodletters and pit fighters. I am okay with it.

Good job Galak and the rest of the development team!

[RogueThirteen]

For all of you who feel personally spited because you wanted a Khorne team that was the uber-est of killers, how about you just paint a Chaos team red and gold and give 'em Khorney names. Heck, you could even used a horned demon in place a minotaur model!

Seriously, this game sure as hell didn't and doesn't need yet another high str / high av killer team more effective at killing than Chaos. We already have enough ridiculous debates over whether or not Clawpomb is a "problem."

Nuffle knows Chaos Clawpomb is touted as the 'worst thing ever' often enough already. Now, apparently, the fact that a new Khorne roster isn't raising the bar of bashy-kill-kill is the new worst thing ever. Makes sense to me.

[RogueThirteen]

Also, I'll take a crack at fixing the "fluff" concerns some have:

Pit Fighters (Variant 1): In the BB world, I imagine the followers of Khorne love blood and violence so much that they participate in pit fights and gladiatorial games between Blood Bowl seasons to honor and please their god of violence. Why do they have access to Pass? I'm sure they've had all sort of experience hurling javelins and other throwing weapons in the pits and arenas, and a football is easy to throw by comparison.

Pit Fighters (Variant 2): In the BB world, Khorne demons force their followers and slaves to fight to the death to celebrate and honor Khorne. Those fighters that perform the best earn their freedom from the pits and are allowed to put their experience to use on the Blood Bowl pitch. Throwing weapons = Pass access as per above.


As for why are the lesser demons and "bloodthirster" weak compared to their "Warhammer World" versions, you can come up with dozens of reasons to alleviate your fluff-fears. Maybe the wizards' guild put powerful hexes around blood bowl stadiums so that only officially sanctioned and appropriately hired guild wizards are able to cast their magic to influence a game. This "hex" weakens the demonic aura of the bloodletters and "bloodthirster" avatar. Alternatively, there are a near endless other "fluff" reasons that could explain why these demons don't fit the GW fanboi's version of chaos daemons. Just use your imagination. Perhaps in the "BB World" Nuffle's power is so great that other celestial entities have been weakened in his presence. As such, the physical avatars that the Khorne-under-Nuffle's Mighty Shadow can muster are substantially weaker than what the unrestricted Khorne of the BB World can whip up.

[GreedySmurf]

For all of you who feel personally spited because you wanted a Khorne team that was the uber-est of killers, how about you just paint a Chaos team red and gold and give 'em Khorney names. Heck, you could even used a horned demon in place a minotaur model!

Seriously, this game sure as hell didn't and doesn't need yet another high str / high av killer team more effective at killing than Chaos. We already have enough ridiculous debates over whether or not Clawpomb is a "problem."

Nuffle knows Chaos Clawpomb is touted as the 'worst thing ever' often enough already. Now, apparently, the fact that a new Khorne roster isn't raising the bar of bashy-kill-kill is the new worst thing ever. Makes sense to me.

Good post Rogue 13. This is exactly what I would have said.

So in some posters opinions it doesn't exactly fit the Khorne fluff from WH - if you did that, you would have an OP team chock-a-block with spammed Clawpomb, a team that would wreck perpetual leagues.

[Smeborg]

For those of you spewing bile over the latest innovation to our lovely game, please get over it and get a life.

My admiration for the Galaks of this world knows no bounds, since the sole reward for their work seems to be venom from the community. IMO they deserve rather our honour and affection.

All the best.