Games Day anyone? (Now with added Khorne roster)

[Manuel]

Something I have always wondered is... what is the kind of relationship between GW and the NAF?

I mean, even if GW goes mad and suddenly changes the rules to be more "13 year old friendly", deleting some of the teams and creating others in their usual style, what is the level of obligation of the NAF?

If it's only a fan administrated group of players, I don't think there should be any. We play a game the way we will, an we get no financial benefit from it.

I suppose the direction of the NAF could decide to follow GW requirements, or not, but... wouldn't it be a too big decission? I think the best thing would be making a referendum, but I don't know it any has been ever done.

P.D.: I'm not an usual english speaker, sorry if there is any mistake.
P.D.D.: I'm particularly worried about my recently bought slann team. I love playing with them and I would hate any kind of controversial "you cannot play with this" tournaments. We could always say we stick to the official GW background... the one from 1993.

[Pakulkan]

Hello all,

I directly endorsed the question about Khorne Teams directly to NAF officers:

http://www.thenaf.net/index.php?name=PN ... 6784#86784

As I think some feedback from NAF could be welcome about their thoughts in this case.

I think intersting open questions are made by this new situation.

To date GW was more or less the "decissory point" on what was official or not. An exception was made with Slann, Chaos Pact and Underworld just because the issues because GW argue to not include them officially were merely selling miniatures. They were accepted and balanced in terms of gaming.

After this, Cyanide add a new team and we don't know if GW will do so. What then?

As some BBRC memebers (I guess) participate in the Khorne development. Are Galak and the BBRC in position to add new teams and changes to the NAF or even the CRP? Talking about they always seem to be the key point in BB changes.

Honestly, to me it is. I found BBRC the best push to this game, and thank to them we have a wonderful ruleset.

But could NAF allow this? Regarding its relation with GW. This is the terrifying situation. I think most of us will be pleased with NAF driving the boat, contacting BBRC and letting them to evolve the ruleset beside GW's CRP. But maybe this is impossible to share with GW colaboration. Are we disposed to lose the dice to keep the rules?

What I mean is that this could seem a very incidental issue, but maybe it will put on the table the question of who will finally rule the "official" (in terms of players community) Bloodbowl: GW, NAF, BBRC, NAF+BBRC...

Challenging question thought.

[garion]

Well this is without doubt the worst semi official roster I have ever seen. (and yes that is including some of the 4th ed gold ones).

First of all ignoring the fact that this is meant to be a Khorne team the roster is just plain terrible. I would expect this to perform worse than vampires, maybe even Goblins. Creating a starting roster is a painful experience, the Big Guy is rubbish for his cost, the Linemen, Big guy and 2 positionals all have frenzy making it a negatrait. The av of the team is very low and everything is very expensive, also everything is St3 which makes this team very poor at high TV bash straight off the bat. I also don't think this is adding anything new to the game really, we already have Norse who are Frenzy heavy Av light with a similar Big Guy and who are better. This all begs the question why add another new roster that is truly terrible at any TV?



Now considering this is meant to be a Khorne roster that makes it even worse-

First the Pit Fighters...... What the hell is that all about??? A completely nonsensical name especially when there are others to choose from that would fit perfectly well, such as Cultist, Khorne Marauder, or my favourite Chaos Thug/Khorne Thug. But that's just the name so I guess that can almost be forgiven. Now the stats, they are fine. But why P access? This is a Khorne team P access should be the furthest thing from a Khorne team imaginable. Looks like a lame way of giving them easy access to Leader to make up for their expensive re-rolls and nothing more tbh. Frenzy on all the linemen is awful, firstly because that much frenzy makes it a nega-trait and secondly why do these Pit Fighters have Frenzy when the Bloodletters don't. It just doesn't make sense.

Next up the bloodletters..... Their Stat line is laughable. 6337???? So these elite players of Khorne are as lowly as a Thrall??? okay......? Av7 is ridiculous, should clearly be Av8, St3 is even worse, it should be 4 at least. Then there is the skill access. Why the hell do Bloodletters have A access, should they have easy access to Catch, Jump Up, Leap etc.. Obviously not, this is just a ridiculous decision. Then there is their skills; Horns and juggs is fine, no issue there, but they should be the ones with Frenzy not the linemen. Regenerate I like, this is a nice little throwback to 'the gold old days'.

Next up Khorne Herald - So basically 2 more bloodletters with an extra Av and frenzy (both of which the letters should've had anyway). But again no St4. Very strange.

Then the Bloodthirster - Not too much wrong with this really, although he is uber expensive and not very good. AG1? Why? what is that based on? The rest is okay. Though why is this greater Daemon weaker than a treeman? only just as strong as a Minotaur? again ridiculous.


I have to say I am really shocked at quite how bad this turned out. Galak and I don't see eye to eye on many things in Bloodbowl but I always respected the fact that most of his decisions stayed true to the fluff, like with the Slann, Underworld and chaos Pact rosters. Although not perfect and have some minor faults, they stayed true to fluff which is vital. But this roster is completely devoid of fluff. Makes absolutely no sense at all no matter how you look at it. I'm really surprised he created this roster.... though it does seem Cyanide forced some things to be in the roster, so maybe this was there roster which he tweaked but even so why did he allow his name to be tied to this roster. It's just aweful.

And shame on anyone else involved too!

I's just soo bad. I was quite looking forward to giving this a try, now I couldn't be less interested. Terrible effort I pray the NAF do not allow this anywhere near them.

[Darkson]

+1

If I didn't know better, I'd assume Tom deliberately ruined the roster (I know he has to much integrity for that).

[plasmoid]

As stated - I like the roster and look forward to seeing it play.
But I do have some fluff concerns.

If your commish bans them, then by all means swing by the MBBL or the NTBBL come december and try Them out by email.
Cheers all
Martin

[garion]

+1

If I didn't know better, I'd assume Tom deliberately ruined the roster (I know he has to much integrity for that).

+1 to that as well. Surely this can be the only reasonable explanation?

[robsoma]

The situation surrounding underworld, pact and slann is different. These teams were set (after a lot of playtesting) to be officially included in LRB6, however due to GW deciding to can that they were never made official. However as they had already been cleared by the bbrc they were given NAF sanction. My understanding is that the bbrc no longer exist as GW the owner put in place the CRP (ofgicial rules) and these are not subject to review. GW has also allowed/authorised cyanide to be able to include underworld and a new team to the computer simulation of the game, cyanide being an authorised licenced user of th IP.

To make any sort of claim the the NAF (which is in no way an official governing body) needs to be contacted to clear the addition of teams is a bit silly, its like GW writting to us all to ask if its ok. I'm sure lycos and the team will review the addition of the new team in due time.

[garion]

The Naf cleared the 3 new teams, pact UW and frogs. They are now pretty much universally excepted as legit teams for tourneys and used on fumbbl and one of which is used on cyanide. If they said this travesty of a roster is official as far as they are concerned then they would start popping up at tourneys and so on. NAF are a big deal here i think. Lets hope they do the right thing and pretend this never existed.

Though that said the roster is sooo bad anyway i doubt many would take it to a tourney with the exception of those that love playing with gobos, flings ogres and vamps only.

[robsoma]

Pako i think its important to understand that the NAF cannot make any demands to GW in regards to bloodbowl. Bloodbowl is their game, they can make any amendments or additions that they like. GW are the only official word in regards to the game.

[Genghis]

But as others have said Slann, Pact and Underworld are not acknowledged in the crp ruleset posted on the GW website

... and as an aside, I still think it's hilarious that the CRP includes the Animosity skill, but doesn't acknowledge the only players who have it.

[garion]

I don't think it does?

[GalakStarscraper]

Wasn't just me working on the roster and I didn't do anything to make it bad.

After seeing Mattslater and Darkson vote the roster down ... I knew if I got Garion to do it I had the hat trick of my normal folks who don't like my work.

Okay that comment aside. I made it pretty clear years ago that I didn't think BB needed more Tier 1 teams. So it should not surprise anyone that if I had a hand in it that my voice and opinions where aimed at the team being Tier 1.5 (and I greatly disagree with Garion that this team will play just like Norse for its Frenzy ability). Nowhere in the fluff of BLOOD BOWL does it say that Khorne teams were great winning teams. The description of the one team uses words like homicidal and bloodthirsty ... not winning.

I got involved with the team because while I personally don't think BB NEEDED a 25th team ... I didn't want it to be broken (ie too good) or a mirror of something you already have. If you really believe this team is a mirror of Norse and can be played using the same strategies ... I personally believe you are talking out of your butt. I can think of no other way to say that. I ACTUALLY played a roster like this in the MBBL2 for a season where we had the Savage Orc team that was Frenzy based. So I'm not speaking theorybowl on this ... I've played it. There is a massive difference between Norse having the ability to have up to 5 Frenzy players (but they can just as easily have zero) and a team that will ALWAYS have 7 and could have up to 11 Frenzy players on the pitch. Its not even close to the same thing. Adding in Horns and Juggernaut which both mix very well with Frenzy and you have a dynamic of a team that even a a rookie team will only skull out blitzes on double skulls and will normally be two dice to hit and get two shots to do it. If you try to play this Khorne team with a Norse playbook ... you'll lose ... it really isn't the same at all.

If you wanted the Khorne team to be more of the same ... then yeah ... I should not have been involved with the roster design because I think more of the same rosters are boring as hell. The Blood Bowl full is that the Khorne team is out of control ... THAT is the Blood Bowl fluff ... that is what we tried to mirror. If you are bring Warhammer fluff into this ... WHY? I didn't use Warhammer fluff when I built the Slann team, the Underworld team OR the Chaos Pact team ... so why in Nuffle would I start using Warhammer fluff to design a Khorne team. Maybe someone else would ... but then I'm not someone else.

Keep in mind that I've been very clear ... we HAD RULES on what HAD to be PART OF the team. Some of the gripes you've all said ... let's just say if you are throwing them at the player coach design committee ... you are aiming at the wrong folks. I wish I could show you the two rosters we were presented from parties outside the design committee and the rules the design committee were given for what we could not change as it might help you understand the process (Darkson insert here the original PBBL rules and you'll understand). But its part of the NDA and I'm honoring what I signed.

I go back to what I said before ... for the Blood Bowl fluff on Khorne and creating a team that offers something different to the game without being entirely too weak or too strong ... I'm happy with what the player coach committee came up with and I still stand by that.

Tom

[GalakStarscraper]

I don't think it does?

Animosity is in the CRP. When Jervis asked me to delete the 3 new teams from the Handbook ... I left in Animosity to leave the door open. Jervis when he edited the Handbook to the CRP either missed it or choose to leave it in to leave the door open for the future as well. The same story is true for the skill Fan Favourite.

Tom

[ulvardar]

Pako i think its important to understand that the NAF cannot make any demands to GW in regards to bloodbowl. Bloodbowl is their game, they can make any amendments or additions that they like. GW are the only official word in regards to the game.

Let's see.... we are not talking about NAF demanding anything to GW. In fact, as long as i know, relationship between both must be bad. For those that don't know, NAF had to change their online domain for fear of a GW sue, because the NAF domain included "bloodbowl" on it. Now it's just http://www.thenaf.net

Robsoma, it seems you consider the CRAP book as the rule for BB. It's ok, keep it for you and the GW lovers. It's made with the effort and work of BBRC and lot of testing of players around the world (in fact it's based on LRB 5.0 as far as i know). You can happily play with it, and attend the wide array of GW Blood Bowl tourneys around the world. And remember, you can only use GW minis, that's good too, as you don't need to spend time and money on Impact, Willy Miniatures, Gaspez, Rolljordan, Heresy, Green Dog Miniatures and others... so all are good news.

There are 13701 ranked members of NAF right now. And i mean people that at least has played a NAF tourney once, there are other people thas is member of the NAF but never attended a NAF tourney (like you). It's a democracy, you can elect your president, has nothing related to GW and it's not ruled by them.

Numbers are clear, i think. BB is not GW game anymore. They created it. They have licensed it. We own it.

[GalakStarscraper]

Though that said the roster is sooo bad anyway i doubt many would take it to a tourney with the exception of those that love playing with gobos, flings ogres and vamps only.

I didn't think I would get the polar opposites this quickly but I just got finished reading the organizer of the Spike tournament argue on the NAF that the team looked overpowered and scary.

Generally speaking when we were working on LRB 5.0 ... this was a good sign when the polar opposites appeared for our work.