Progression vs. Resurrection

[Bob Bifford]

What is it with resurrection tournaments? yet another tournament i would be interested in if it wasn't for resurrection to many people must really hug onto there players lol.


[Edit] Split from the Weymouth thread - Darkson

[Purplegoo]

What is it with resurrection tournaments? yet another tournament i would be interested in if it wasn't for resurrection to many people must really hug onto there players lol.

I completely agree that resurrection doesn't represent 'real' Blood Bowl exactly; but progression isn't the ideal format for a weekend tournament (as a general rule).

People are paying their hard-earned time and cash to spend a weekend away. That first game where all of your positionals bite it, meaning you've got 5 more games to play with a collection of Journeymen, you know that most of your fun (the important bit) and competitive edge (also important) is gone. Gone in game one. The the bloke on the next table rolls a +ST Wardancer. Yummy.

There are things to adjust to and learn arriving in a new environment. But whenever you turn up somewhere new, there are reasons things are done as they are. If there are lots of people that want progression tournaments, I'm sure they'll become more prevalent, but I'm sure you can see the drawbacks of the format?

Either way, turn up to some of these, have fun. It might not be Blood Bowl per se, but whatever it is, it's grand.

[Boneless]

What is it with resurrection tournaments? yet another tournament i would be interested in if it wasn't for resurrection to many people must really hug onto there players lol.

I completely agree that resurrection doesn't represent 'real' Blood Bowl exactly; but progression isn't the ideal format for a weekend tournament (as a general rule).

People are paying their hard-earned time and cash to spend a weekend away. That first game where all of your positionals bite it, meaning you've got 5 more games to play with a collection of Journeymen, you know that most of your fun (the important bit) and competitive edge (also important) is gone. Gone in game one. The the bloke on the next table rolls a +ST Wardancer. Yummy.

There are things to adjust to and learn arriving in a new environment. But whenever you turn up somewhere new, there are reasons things are done as they are. If there are lots of people that want progression tournaments, I'm sure they'll become more prevalent, but I'm sure you can see the drawbacks of the format?

Either way, turn up to some of these, have fun. It might not be Blood Bowl per se, but whatever it is, it's grand.

Some thing to add to this. Once you play your first game and let's say purple goo here plays me and squeezes out a 2-1 win. (as I'm yet to beat him) he gains an MVP on a line. A thrower scores 2 ssp for passing and 2 other players have 3 each. No skill rolls.

Next round he plays a wood elf coach that had an epic shoot out with his last and won 5-4. Same td diff.

Already the gap between these two side could be large now. A good start in any league skills wise can set up the rest of the league

[Bob Bifford]

But isn't that all the fun what comes with blood bowl? I wouldn't care if half my team missed the next game it would just feel more sweeter victory if i won the next game.

Well that's just me and till things change i doubt i will be attending many tournaments just glad the ACC in Southampton is progressive.

[Purplegoo]

If that's your thing, that's your thing.

Still, I'd encourage you to at least give resurrection a go. I never thought I'd enjoy it nearly as much as I did. And now I'm a somewhat shameless addict.

Apologies, Weymouth types. I won't be making the weekend, and I'll take my spam away. The only time I ever visited Weymouth I was so drunk I don't remember much of the town, so maybe one day.

[SillySod]

Hi Bob,

I'm glad that you are a fan of the ACC ruleset! However, I feel compelled to defend the resurrection format. While it isnt quite as exciting it is still bloodbowl and the format has a heap of advantages. Here are a few that come to mind...

1 - games resolve more quickly - cutting out progression eliminates a heap of mid-game and post-game administration so players can complete a game within an overall shorter time.
2 - progression causes disputes - I havent had a problem with this since I was 13 but SPP trading is a very real concern. Suppose someone rolls three +Str orc blitzers? Probably fair and square but I'm sure you can see why this might create some unrest.
3 - people are wusses - some players very worried about losing their whole team on game one. I'm not convinced that this is a genuine concern but I guess its a valid worry.
4 - funky rulesets - the resurrection format allows some pretty mad rulesets with alternative skill costings and all manner of cool things. This helps keep everthing fresh and adds a whole new dimension to the game.

-and-

5 - running a progression tournament adds a whole heap of extra book keeping - in order to garuantee that everything is above board you need to keep a record of rosters as they progress through the tournament. Even if you just scan the rosters each round it is a heap of work and ideally you want to catch any errors before the next round starts which means even more book keeping!

Anyway, make sure you try at least a couple of the resurrection tournaments. Hopefully you will be pleasently suprised


(sorry Weymouth, I'll stfu too Might hop along for the tournament though, lots of nice people I met in Bath all came from Weymouth - is it just GW stuff or is there a chance of warmachine?)

[Darkson]

I've personally got no interest in a Progression tournament, that's what I have league play for.
Also, given that there are so few Progression tournaments world-wide compared to Resurrection ones, seems most people have a similar view.

Have you tried a Ressurrection tournament?

[Hangus]

But isn't that all the fun what comes with blood bowl? I wouldn't care if half my team missed the next game it would just feel more sweeter victory if i won the next game.

Well that's just me and till things change i doubt i will be attending many tournaments just glad the ACC in Southampton is progressive.

Not to sound too nasty but I sorry to say one player lost and many others gained. If it was progressive you would not get coaches travelling the world to play Blood Bowl. Why spend a couple of hundred euros / quid on it when first game a random throw rock kills your big guy and you team gets deleted meaning you have to sit through another 5 games with little to no chance of winning because of one random roll. Blood Bowl would be limited to those within easy travelling distance. People would drop out of day two because 'what is the point'.

I know the whole 'make the victory sweeter' thing sounds good in your head but in reality it's going to be one game at most (if you are lucky). The other games are going to be painful and you are not going to enjoy them.

I really do hope you change your mind as you sound like a nice bloke and it would be great to play against you.

[spubbbba]

I can see why most people would not want to play in a progression individual tournament. Maybe if it was a team event with bonus points awarded for victories at a significant disadvantage. The trouble is that some teams are expensive and can’t get all the players and re-rolls they want at such low TV, losing an expensive positional or 2 in game 1 would devastate their chances.
I think you would also end up with bashy teams like dwarfs, orcs and especially undead dominating things.

I’d quite like to see a mid-TV tournament, either with a number of pre-created rosters per race or some sort of points system where you would get a number of skills and stat increases but also have some injuries too. The latter would be much harder to balance though.

[Sandwich]

I’d quite like to see a mid-TV tournament, either with a number of pre-created rosters per race or some sort of points system where you would get a number of skills and stat increases but also have some injuries too. The latter would be much harder to balance though.

This is something (as a fan of several races which really suffer at low TV) I'd love to see as well.

I don't know if it would work, but what about giving a TV of e.g. 1600 and some limits on improvements (such as no more than 2 per player, a limit on stat increases etc), and letting the coach create the team as usual. So you could spend it all (or a large amount) on players/rerolls/inducements, or go with a cheaper team and spread a bunch of skills around.

[spubbbba]

I’d quite like to see a mid-TV tournament, either with a number of pre-created rosters per race or some sort of points system where you would get a number of skills and stat increases but also have some injuries too. The latter would be much harder to balance though.

This is something (as a fan of several races which really suffer at low TV) I'd love to see as well.

I don't know if it would work, but what about giving a TV of e.g. 1600 and some limits on improvements (such as no more than 2 per player, a limit on stat increases etc), and letting the coach create the team as usual. So you could spend it all (or a large amount) on players/rerolls/inducements, or go with a cheaper team and spread a bunch of skills around.

I have always thought mid-TV Bloodbowl is the most interesting and challenging as at that stage luck is less of a factor. You should have a reasonable amount of re-rolls and players by that stage so a couple of lucky cas will be less devastating than they were for rookie teams. But you won’t be able to have everything like you can at high TV where often it comes down to who gets 1st turn.

It is a tricky problem creating mid TV rosters as you ignore the key skill of team building in the progression game. In tournaments where you can assign skills some teams get a huge advantage from this, a 1000TV Lizardmen team with the addition of Block on 5 saurus is worth far more than 1100TV IMO. Whilst with wood elves it is relatively easy to skill up any player you want but you pay for this ability in higher cost and fragility.

Maybe you could limit the number of skills taken per postional? Say Orcs could have a Block, MB, Guard BO, a Block BO and 2 rookies. Or a skill package, you can give a player MB, tackle and either block or PO but he comes with a niggling injury.
Another option would be a pool of skill upgrades say 15 normal, 5 doubles, 2 +MA or AV, 1 AG and 1ST and these are assigned randomly, but you get a couple of re-rolls or vetoes.

I think the simplest method would be the set roster, possibly with a few extra skills the players can assign themselves to some rookies or for extra costs to developed players. You could theme them so say have a killer (lots of MB, claw and PO), stymie (SF, wrestle and tents) and generic (Block and guard) Nurgle rosters.

That might actually work better for a progression tournament as you could choose to focus on 11 skilled up player or take less skills and have a deeper bench maybe with some cash banked to take some inducements. That would mean you would have some back up in case the devastating game 1 came along. Sillysod brought up a good point about book keeping so it might be better to play 2 games a day rather than 3.

[DoubleSkulls]

In Australia the national championship, CanCon, is a progression tournament, using the "choose MVP" optional rule. That actually seems to work pretty well, but as you'd expect some of the meta-game rolls have a significant impact on the overall standings, so there is a correlation between TV and final standing (i.e. the highest TV teams tend to do best).

Given that all tournament formats bias one way or another I don't think progression, per se, is any better or worse than resurrection, its just different.

For me the real problem with progression tournaments is cheating, or the perception of cheating. Organisers need to go to much greater lengths to collect full match reports and data, so they can verify any accusations of cheating. So long as the TO is prepared to do this, then its okay.

[Bob Bifford]

Thanks for putting this as its own topic.

I’d quite like to see a mid-TV tournament, either with a number of pre-created rosters per race or some sort of points system where you would get a number of skills and stat increases but also have some injuries too. The latter would be much harder to balance though.

I would be very interested in this.

[Indigo]

I don't think it'd work. The resurrection format is tried and tested, it works very very well indeed.

We have leagues, both online and TT, for progression stuff. It's been debated before but the end result is always the same, res style is the best for tournaments and the progression leagues work very well for longer term.

Both are blood bowl, just two ways of achieving the same goal - having fun playing the game.

I appreciate you may not like res style but to dismiss them out of hand is cutting your nose off to spite your face a bit - several thousand coaches worldwide attest to the popularity and fun of this style of event, give it a solid try before writing it off. Particularly with multiple events on your doorstep, including this weekend.

[Thadrin]

Tailoring a rules pack to mimic progression while maintaining the Res base shouldn't be too hard either.

Just to pull something out of my arse on the fly:
game 1 - 1000k teams. (You do not need to spend the whole treasury).
pre-game 2 - gain 1 skill and 50kgps (which may be spent immediately or saved).
pre-game 3 - gain 2 skills and 50kgps.
pre-game 4 - gain 2 skills OR add a skill to previously skilled player. gain 50kgps. Each team chooses six players on their opponent's roster. One of these players (randomly selected) is MNG.
pre-game 5 - gain 2 skills or add a skill to a player with a single extra skill. gain 50kgps.
pre-game 6 - gain 1 skill on any unskilled player and 1 skill on a single skilled player.
Two chosen skills may be double skills. These choices may be used at any stage.

There's probably all sorts of holes and possible breakage in it, and it is really only a glorified more complicated Res format, but it gives the Progression player the more in depth development he wants over the single skill per game/fixed skills all tourney format.