Crazy suggested Rewrite for the Amazons

[Xadie]

0-2 Huntress 6428 Claw, Dauntless, Guard, Wild Animal 130k GS (Amazing Amazon on a Jaguar, more armored)

aehm lol... no. Just no. If you go that way, that make her a secret weapon like the death roller. But let's not go too much along the lines of an army book someone wrote
Let's keep them more along the lines of a fast running team and pls don't get lost in inventing gimmicky positionals or we end up with another norse Cockerel: Full of gimmicks but horrible weak overall.

[Glamdryn]

Let's keep them more along the lines of a fast running team and pls don't get lost in inventing gimmicky positionals or we end up with another norse Cockerel: Full of gimmicks but horrible weak overall.

I think that the Norse roster is one of the more fun rosters in the game. Norse are definitely not weak...

[Xadie]

hm yeah....

A Cockerel almost entirely consisting of AV7 players, with only 3 players starting with AV8. Means you will have about 8 players with AV7 on the pitch. Only 2 players have natural access to dodge. This means VERY high player rotation. Not as high as Skaven, but not too far off. Way worse than Amazons (in a not tackle dominated environment) or AV7 elfs (when played smart).

They have 5 players with frenzy and those are the only ones with Guard-Access. 2 frenzy players have only ST3. Which means that for once they get totally out gunned by Orcs, Dwarfes, Nurgle, Chaos and Chaos-Dwarfs. From mid-tv on starting they just get steamrolled. As they just get out-guarded, have a lower Strength-Base and have also less players that have easy acces to MB and Pilling-On. Frenzy on itself is a skill bordering to be a nega-trait. Having almost half the team with this skill on the pitch won't necessarily set you up to the road of success.

Norse aren't particular fast nor have a high agility. Which means they aren't mobile or able to disengage from the opponent at will like elves can do.

So tell me, where are the strength of that team? They can do well in a 1000TV Resurrection-Tournament. But in any longer going league (20 games ++) with decent opponents they're rubbish, like so many other races. +

[Hitonagashi]

So tell me, where are the strength of that team? They can do well in a 1000TV Resurrection-Tournament. But in any longer going league (20 games ++) with decent opponents they're rubbish, like so many other races.

Fairly obviously, mass block + cheap players. Even when you have journeymen, they are somewhat reliable because they've got block.

The other thing people miss is that they are the only team that can start pushing players around(due to lots of block and frenzy) and have movement too. Orcs and dwarves get rather stuffed if they overcommit, norse really don't, so they can use that frenzy and position to their advantage. You need to spread the skills a bit, as their runners aren't players that can win the games singlehandedly, but if you've got some berserker skills, some lineman skills, and remember that the thrower is purely there for leader and rr's, you can do very well with norse.

[Xadie]

Fairly obviously, mass block + cheap players. Even when you have journeymen, they are somewhat reliable because they've got block.

Cheap players only take you so far. You can still only have 11 players on the pitch. Doesn't matter whether they cost 0 gold or 100 000 gold, if they can't hold a candle on the field all is in vain.


As soon as norse teams are in the attrition spiral their starting block doesn't help them much, thanks to their AV7...

[garion]

Hmm have to disagree. Norse are a very good race at all but very.high tv vs other bash teams. When playing with av7 elves there isn't a race I fear more. Like all av7 teams you can get the occasional game where you are down 3 or 4 players in the first turn. But it should still be fairly rare.

[Xadie]

Norse are a very good race at all but very.high tv vs other bash teams. When playing with av7 elves there isn't a race I fear more.

That's all what I'm saying. Bullying AV7 races and falling off against bash at higher TV. (Around 1750 they're already quite behind in the power curve against orcs and alike)

My main focus is perpetual league play and I just don't see, in practice or in theory, how norse can survive what teams have to face there. Actually quite a lot teams can't do it on the long run...

[Hitonagashi]

Okay, let's look at it like this:

Killer combo access on normals: You have 5 players with it, all of who can be cheap block frenzy mb po'ers if you really want. The Snow Troll is the only big guy other than the Chaos Mino able to get the "can opener" on normals (claw/mb). In addition, due to your starting skills, your berserkers can have mb/po/block/frenzy by 16 spp! They may die fast, but they can be skilled up to be very useful in a short space of time, so you can always be competitive.

Cheap linos: Okay, cheap is cheap, and as you say, doesn't help when they vanish...but especially in situations where you might face clawbomb, you are immune to claw. This doesn't mean you survive longer, but it does mean you are paying less for each player they kill, and your TV is much lower as a result. This isn't LRB4, inducements are powerful, and if you end up bringing one of the 240k+ stars to the table, they are gameturningly good. It also means that Norse are one of the few races where fouling can be nice. You'd be surprised how long a block/fend av 7 lineman survives, and a for a basher, they are very irritating to deal with when marking important pieces.

Starting ST on the squad: 2x Ulf's + 1 snow troll. Not bad, but 3 frenzied high ST pieces is certainly more than most other races..Chaos/Nurgle/Pact/Orcs/Vampires are the only ones that start with more.

Starting mobility on the squad: Pretty much blanket MV 6 means that against the bashers, you can move around, and against elves, you won't get left behind. AG 3 helps this as well. The catchers having MV 7 also really helps with shifting the ball quickly...and don't forget jump up on the blitzers, allowing them to PO every turn with impunity so they won't get hit back.

True, you can't outbash orcs/dwarves with norse. Their AV 9 is too sturdy as a rule...but you can, and have to play a running game, sticking near the sidelines and surfing them, and hoping your can opener gets a bit lucky.

Against Chaos/Nurgle/CD's/Pact, you are fine in a bashing war. A lot of their power relies on clawbomb, and every claw they've taken against you is wasted TV. In addition, as any human player will tell you, AV 8 against MB/PO/Jump up is decidedly fragile, and your can opener has decidedly fewer important targets to open up.

Norse can be a very competitive choice at most TV ranges. Over 2000 TV, they are very hard to maintain, but their big big advantage in perpetual leagues is that since every player is good out of the box, you are competitive in every game, despite casualty counts. Try telling that to the elf team that just had all 4 catchers killed in 2 games...

[plasmoid]

I think Norse is one of the teams that can benefit quite a bit from some fend players.
It will certainly help you out in a bashwar.

[Xadie]

Starting mobility on the squad: Pretty much blanket MV 6 means that against the bashers, you can move around, and against elves, you won't get left behind. AG 3 helps this as well. The catchers having MV 7 also really helps with shifting the ball quickly...and don't forget jump up on the blitzers, allowing them to PO every turn with impunity so they won't get hit back.

If a little bit more MA would make such a difference then Humans would be very good, having 4x MA7 and 4x MA8 players. But they aren't. Because at the end of the day they only have AG3. Which limits moving around a lot. If you commit with norse or the commitment is forced upon you, there is only so much you can do.

Usually between your players and the goal line are the opponents. Well that's obvious. But as you moving through them, the opponent should reach the same location with fewer MA necessary. Only if he/she is out of position you can make that tiny speed advantage count.

Against Chaos/Nurgle/CD's/Pact, you are fine in a bashing war. A lot of their power relies on clawbomb, and every claw they've taken against you is wasted TV. In addition, as any human player will tell you, AV 8 against MB/PO/Jump up is decidedly fragile, and your can opener has decidedly fewer important targets to open up.

Following your argument: AV 7 is extremely fragile against MB/PO. Sure Fend helps against PO. But already 1 or 2 PO players forces you to have a significant higher amount of fend to protect yourself from it. And after Fend there is not much what norsemen can acquire. Dauntless, Tackle and DP are nice skills but more for a specialist role than a skill you usually spam around. But beastmen will get all the good stuff past the initial block: guard & mb.

For actually surfing players you need to make good blocks. And this will be increasingly difficult as norse fall behind in guard. Also Chaos comes with the double amount of ST4 players, all with sweet AV9. And in a brawl, when the chaos player surrounds you and locking you down, as you sticked to the sideline, norse armor will crack more often. Because yet again the chaos team will have more MB on board.

Try telling that to the elf team that just had all 4 catchers killed in 2 games...

I highly doubt that norse have much of a chance if they lose their developed berserkers and their ulfwereners in short order. Suddenly the team lost almost all its guard and killing potential. Just giving an example with similar gravity.

[zerodemon]

This is what we did.

0-16 Linewomen 50,000 6 3 3 7 Dodge A GSP
0-2 Throwers 70,000 6 3 3 7 Dodge, Hail Mary Pass AP GS
0-4 Catchers 70,000 8 2 3 7 Dodge, Diving Catch A GSP
0-4 Blitzers 100,000 7 3 3 8 Dodge, Wrestle GS AP
re-rolls 50,000

Design Choices
We kept dodge universal, but removed general skills on a standard roll. This ensures that blodge is kept to a minimum on the team early on.
We changed up the profiles (following the human team example, though at reduced AV) to make give the team a little more variety.
We opted to adopt the hail mary/diving catch thrower catcher combo as standard. It gives them an edge early on and makes them a little more fun to use.
We gave blitzers AV8 and wrestle. We hate block/dodge here (the combo is banned in our house league) but for common use, we though it best to make wrestle available. The blitzers having wrodge makes more sense for a light weight fast team, with the combo blodge never making sense to me except as an exploit.

The team works well and is as fun to play as the human team. We didn't give a big guy, because we feel that not every team needs one.

[Xadie]

To get the discussion about Amazons going again.

So far I liked Garions Roster the most, but I would modify it a bit

0-16 Linewomen 50k 6 3 3 7 Dodge G ASP
0-2 Throwers 70k 6 3 3 7 Dodge, Pass, Accurate GP AS
0-4 Piranha Runners 100k 8 3 3 7 Diving Catch, Dodge GA SP
0-2 Eagle Women 100k 7 3 3 8 Block GAS P
0-1 Ogress 130k 5 5 2 9 Loner, Bone Head, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Throw Team Mate S

Aside to the name changes (I love unique position names) I modified the Blitzers a lot. I swaped Dodge & Stand Firm for Block and Agility Access. The main reason is that access to Jump Up would drive that mobility focused running game much more and mailny ST3 races should never start without Block. In spirit of that I raised MA to 7 as well. On high TV they still need all the speed and mobility they can muster to keep up with High-Strength and/or the Mass-Strength-Skill crowd.
I also exchanged Nerves of Steel with Dodge. While NoS makes them better Catchers, they start only with Dodge, which lets them become a liability on high tv when attrition spiral kicks in. I also lowered the cost of the catchers and the throwers by 10k as passing and catching skills as you can only pass the ball so often (and it's quite risky)

Overall the Team offers high speed, good passing skills for AG3, affordable Liners and some Punch. The big gal ( ) is needed to lower the effect of attrition and to have a tool the break Defense-Formations of teams with a lot of ST4 or higher players. On top of it the team is still not too gimmicky, every position has a role and enriches the game possibilities of the team.

[zerodemon]

My only problem with that roster (and I mean it, I actually quite like the roster) lies in the skill tables the Amazons draw from. Giving General access on a single roll means that every player can be a blodger after only one upgrade (including Blitzers, who probably should to be fair.) This all comes down to universal dodge on Amazons.

This is the reason I moved G to doubles for most of the team, but gave everyone A access as standard. You'll find the team has the same problems it currently has (ie, very fast and strong right out of the gate.)

The Ogress idea grows on me more and more, but I'd be more inclined to go for something like a giant ape (a la King Kong, but maybe a big lady ape) because I like the aesthetic of it more. I HATE the idea of them having a Kroxigor. That's just dumb.

At the same time, do they need a big guy? Pro Elves do fine without one and they're a low AV quick team too. If anything, 'zons are close to Humans already. Giving them an Ogress and this profile may make them in to Humans with Dodge and slightly less armour.

No solution I've seen is perfect. The team as it is in its official capacity is terribly boring. I think it needs more work.

Edit: No, forget that. Just looked back at @Doubleskulls roster. That's the business. I'd maybe remove safe throw from the thrower, but otherwise, that's the one I am rolling with. Had some of the same ideas as me, but much more elegant.

I like Wrestle on the Blitzer alot, and Fend on the Linewomen makes more sense than Dodge. Means you can grant GA across the team as standard (so they aren't broken) and trading in the AV for original combos of starting skills is clever.

[DoubleSkulls]

No disrespect to the creator of the current roster, but quite frankly universal dodge is a big fail for me. For a start it makes them too good against many other teams at low TV. Then it makes them far too weak against a few teams at low TV, finally it just makes them really hard to balance in the longer run.

I think a team with a lot of dodge (4-6 players) at the start, and the ability for everyone to get it after two skills would be fine.

The roster I came up with a while ago, although I'll happily admit is flawed, is a much better starting place than these.

Code: Select all

16  Linewoman 50	6337	Fend	AG-PS
4	Catcher	70	8237	Diving Catch, Dodge	AG-PS
2	Thrower	70	6337	Hail Mary Pass, Pass, Safe Throw	AGP-S
4	Blitzer	90	7338	Wrestle	AGS-P

One thing I'm thinking would be fun, would be a roster with a lot of wrestle & jump up.

[Glamdryn]

Let's keep them more along the lines of a fast running team and pls don't get lost in inventing gimmicky positionals or we end up with another norse Cockerel: Full of gimmicks but horrible weak overall.

Everyone agrees that this statement is full of crazysauce?