Moving Agility-skills to Double for DE

[theghr]

Hi. We are about to start playing multiple seasons and tournaments and our teams are to evolve through time. One MAJOR problem we got is that the Dark Elves team soon will start feeding mainly on the Norse and Undead team and therefore i'm looking for feedback on moving the Agility-skills for that team to a Double roll. What do you guys think of this? They do have AG 4 to start with so i dont think their "elven-ess" will suffer too much. But, is this a good move to make the team at TV1500-and-up enough to contain them? Or is it too much? Perhaps just some positionals can get this change, or the coach can choose freely wich say for example three players can get them on a non-double roll.

[dode74]

They have no S access and no ST4 players. This will take away their only non-G apart from the runner's P. Yes, I think it's too much.

Not sure what you mean by "feeding on" the other teams though...

[theghr]

They have no S access and no ST4 players. This will take away their only non-G apart from the runner's P. Yes, I think it's too much.

Not sure what you mean by "feeding on" the other teams though...

I mean that they seem to start dominating most teams the higher the TV(They amongst a few others). We cant be playing tournament after tournament like that. If it's too much, we need to look into maybe making AG-skills Doubles for say linemen?

[dode74]

You could lower spiralling expenses. The way elves go through players that would keep them down from the higher TV tiers. I'd suggest 1700 start with steps of 100 as a starter and see how that goes.

[Greyhound]

I found that dark elves do well in their first 30-40 games but collapse around the 50-games mark with no cash and too many loners. We se them constantly doing well at first and wither like shooting stars.

In our league (120 coaches in 10 division) we usually have one or two dark elf team making it to each of the top 2 division (it takes at least 33 games to get there) and they usually have one good season (top 5) which is another 11 games.
Come the second season in the premiership they have it tough then they reroll or drop down to leech on the lower division (cycle starts again)

Definitely a great team and a top team if you play 30-50 games nut they are not long-lasting in my opinion.

Only AV9 teams can survive at the top long enough.

[dode74]

5 of the top 20 teams by Elo in our league (210 teams in divs of 10) are Dark Elves (3rd, 4th, 9th, 10th, 12th), of which 3 have 50+ games. A team with 64 games is in Div 1 (they came second last season), as is a team with 55 games, and there are another 6 teams in he second tier (tier 2 has 4 divs of 10). I don't think they have longevity issues.

Only AV9 teams can survive at the top long enough.

Sorry, that's demonstrably incorrect. 5 seasons running that same league was won by Wood Elves. They had, for competition, as bashy a bunch as you might want to face who were all skilled to knock that team off its perch. This was eventually done by Lizards, who are the current champions having defended their title. My own team has played 54 games and is still in the second tier. Sure, we have cash issues, but I've just built a few decent line-elves and expect a tad better survivability now. That said, I do have 3 superstars and a star on the team (including 2 +ST and 2 +AG and a +MA) which is bloating the TV a tad!

[Odium Khan]

That's only one league though, hardly a high enough n number to prove your point by the means of statistics (and any other means would be incorrect). Not saying you are wrong, IIRC elves perform very well looking at perpetual leagues globally. Not sure if it's the same elf team performing all the time, or if they take turns though.

Also, Flix is dead hard to beat with his Woodies, so he's almost an exception to the rule.

[dode74]

I know it's only one league, but he said "Only AV9 teams can survive at the top long enough." That takes only one league to disprove

[Rhyoth]

@ theghr
i don't think removing AG skills from DE players would be a good idea, even if it is limited to linos : if you don't apply this change to all elven teams, it would feel extremely unfair and uncoherent (and such a change would hurt those teams much more than DE).
It would be better to think of something more in accordance with the other elven rosters.

Now, i also have several problems with the current DE roster, mainly :
_ they have too many positionnals
_ 6 of them can be AG 4 Blodgers after just one skill up
_ compared to Blitzers and Witches, Assassin and, to a lesser extent, Runners are a really poor deal

Considering all that, here is what i would change about DE :
_ limit Blitzers to 0-2
_ grant Assassin +1 MA for free (what's the point in having Shadowing if his MA is too low to make it effective ?)

WDYT ?

[Greyhound]

Sorry, that's demonstrably incorrect. 5 seasons running that same league was won by Wood Elves. They had, for competition, as bashy a bunch as you might want to face who were all skilled to knock that team off its perch. This was eventually done by Lizards, who are the current champions having defended their title. My own team has played 54 games and is still in the second tier. Sure, we have cash issues, but I've just built a few decent line-elves and expect a tad better survivability now. That said, I do have 3 superstars and a star on the team (including 2 +ST and 2 +AG and a +MA) which is bloating the TV a tad!

Of the teams who started in Season 1 all AV7 have rerolled, our woodies survived several seasons as well but I think they reached the point of no return after 80+ games. I will let you know if they can keep up with all the injuries. There aren't many team surviving and rebuilding over 100 games, and most of the ones I know are AV9

[Greyhound]

I know it's only one league, but he said "Only AV9 teams can survive at the top long enough." That takes only one league to disprove

It was incorrect and tongue in cheek,
I meant to say that AV7 and AV8 have better chance to succeed at first, but less after 100+ games. Whereas AV9 teams are more consistent across he board in my experience.

[theghr]

_ limit Blitzers to 0-2
_ grant Assassin +1 MA for free (what's the point in having Shadowing if his MA is too low to make it effective ?)

This is waht i'm talking about, ideas. And you dont think the assassin move weighs up for the fiewer blitzers?

5 of the top 20 teams by Elo in our league (210 teams in divs of 10) are Dark Elves (3rd, 4th, 9th, 10th, 12th), of which 3 have 50+ games. A team with 64 games is in Div 1 (they came second last season), as is a team with 55 games, and there are another 6 teams in he second tier (tier 2 has 4 divs of 10). I don't think they have longevity issues.

We see here what happens with having a DE team, or Wood elves. The only reason i'm not talking about other elves than DE is that we dont have such a team in our group. I cant see what the point is for anybody that some teams are obviuosly quite better than others. This is also clear when watching the statistics of matches at a higher TV.

[Rhyoth]

I think i should clear things up a little
DE seems to be one of the top team, but i still wouldn't call them dominant : they're probably only slightly above average. So, my motives for nerfing them is not really because they are too good, but rather because they are quite boring to play and develop : apparently, the best way to develop a DE team is to max out Blitzers and Witches, and them spam Blodge/Wrodge around ; in such a team, there is almost no room for Runners and Assassins, and i think it's a shame.

_ limit Blitzers to 0-2
_ grant Assassin +1 MA for free (what's the point in having Shadowing if his MA is too low to make it effective ?)

This is waht i'm talking about, ideas. And you dont think the assassin move weighs up for the fiewer blitzers?
(...)

In this team, Blitzers are the strongest and most resillent player as well as the most versatile ; it's also one of the best deal of the game (if not the best), so removing 2 of them will have severe consequences, as it will make the team weaker and more fragile, and it will also be harder to spam Blodge.
I can't see how improving the Assassin's MA will make up for that : even with this boost, Assassins remain a weak link in the team, because of their low AV and lack of protective skills : think of this boost as a consolation prize.
(and if i'm wrong about that, you can always decide to increase the Assassin's price by 10 k)

Now, you need to be careful before adopting this suggestion : my aim is to make Runners and Assassin more interesting and rewarding to play with ; this means game balance is not my top priority, and i don't really care if this nerf make the team perform significatively below average (after all, the team is labelled as a "challenging" in the rulebook).

So, a lot of player will perceive this change as unfair, and they will be partially right. Just make sure you clear things up in your league, before you adopt this nerf (or any other), so that your DE coaches agree with it. Because if he does not, this kind of ruling can really pollute the atmosphere of your games.

note : One last thing, this suggestion is totally incompatible with plasmoid's NTBB, as it has a straight "no removal of positionnals" policy.

[plasmoid]

As an aside I've always wanted to go:
0-2 Blitzers 7348 Block
0-2 Assassins 7348 Stab

Cheers
Martin

[Xadie]

I think i should clear things up a little
DE seems to be one of the top team, but i still wouldn't call them dominant : they're probably only slightly above average. So, my motives for nerfing them is not really because they are too good, but rather because they are quite boring to play and develop : apparently, the best way to develop a DE team is to max out Blitzers and Witches, and them spam Blodge/Wrodge around ; in such a team, there is almost no room for Runners and Assassins, and i think it's a shame.

My friend,

spamming Dodge and Block/Wrestle is the way to go on ALL elves.
Therefore most elf team develops similar skill wise, though their play differs a bit, mostly due to different AV and starting skills.