Str 3 Human Catcher?

[dode74]

It works in defence, just not when being blocked (which is what I suspect you meant). The solution: protect them.

That said, a 2d block on a blodger still only has a ~30% chance of getting a knockdown without tackle.

[Chris]

Tackle of course being more common at high TV's where humans are suffereing...

[dode74]

More common != ubiquitous. And that still doesn't address the "protect them" argument.

[Chris]

The arguement 'protect them' could be thrown at any blood bowl discussion. Fact is as a team they aren't that hot, so can't protect them. Neither can they protect themselves. If it was that easy to protect them they would be doing a whole lot better in leagues and even tournaments where they have in theory a better chance verses rookie teams. People are not deliberately throwing them into harms way, enemy teams hunt them down and have them because they can't get away as well as the stunty/ag 4 catchers and their team isn't better at protecting them in compensation.

[dode74]

I didn't say they were that hot, but other teams (skaven, WElves) seem to manage with ST2 players. Skaven would simply not be the same team without their gutters!

[Chris]

Now imagine the skaven with ag3 gutter runners...

[dode74]

Hence my suggested 0-2 AG4 catchers

[Juriel]

You cannot call Human Catchers 'highly specialized' when an unskilled elf is almost as good at their stated job (fail 1 in 6 vs Human Catcher failing 1 in 9, and the elves have the option of a team reroll on that). Highly specialized would be something like Pro Elf Catchers. Who are ALSO excellent blitzers on top of it.

To be a Catcher, one would need to be AG4 or start with Diving Catch, IF we want actual specialized people in our supposed generalists. And he'd still need to cost less than 70k if he's going to be AG3 and not really be able to dodge anywhere, and ST2 and not be able to do anything when he does get somewhere.

The gulf between AG3 and AG4 is ENORMOUS. And starting skills just aren't that valuable in the long run compared to base stats.

[Juriel]

I would still want to test a Human Team where the Catchers and Linemen got Fend as a freebie starting skill. That should give the team protection AND their own kind of mobility.

[Oly1987]

I like the idea of starting with dc as it gives them a 2+ and 6spp from blodge but that doesn't stop them getting killed at higher tv

[Smurf]

You cannot call Human Catchers 'highly specialized' when an unskilled elf is almost as good at their stated job (fail 1 in 6 vs Human Catcher failing 1 in 9, and the elves have the option of a team reroll on that). Highly specialized would be something like Pro Elf Catchers. Who are ALSO excellent blitzers on top of it...

What calling Human Catchers are as good as Elf Linemen. What more do you want!

Just imagine as a elf lineman the non impressed fans you get because you're not much better than a Human Catcher.

[Chris]

Higher stats does mean you develope better. No 2 ways about it. With average stats you will always be average and the stat boosts to put you on par with others aren't tv efficient, especially when you are overpriced to start with... That also means developement comes down to luck rather than a strategy with skill picks. Bit like Khemri, you sit there praying for the throwers to get +1ag otherwise you have no game at higher levels of tv. As humans are the average team how to counter that in a way that keeps it while still giving them long term potential?

+1 str and +1ag to become an elf is right out, but not having either?

Lets have a gander at comparable high move pieces.
Human catcher
70k 8/2/3/7 Dodge, Catch, GA

Lizards
60k 8/2/3/7 Dodge, stunty, A
So, certainly weaker. But also dodgier (stunty dodges!). Cheaper unless you add catch. Poorer development too. I would overall fear them more though as unlike the human team they are protected by 7 str4+ team mates...

Skaven
The gutter runner. Probably the best player in the game.
80k! 9!/2/4!/7 Dodge, GA (mutations on doubles)
Better in two regards. Three if you include mutations access. Live brief glorious lives but are cheap to replace and have rapid skilling. In terms of protection the team will speedily reposition to die to the last rat but the gutter runners are a threat right until the end of the game. The Skaven have less blitzers but those blitzers can get claw (CMBPO)/muations. I think worse protection to start with, but if things survive better. Ultimately protection is provided by dead bodies which is something the humans can't seem to afford.

High Elves
90k! 8/3!/4!/7 Catch GA
Well, a nice blitzer He can catch too! I thinkt he protection thanks to the higher armour stays up longer. The linos are free after they die though to get back The blitzer is cheaper to replace than the pro elf though lacks the same tricks out of the box.

Pro elves
100k 8/3!/4!/7 Catch, Nerves of Steel GA
Pricey but excellent right out of the box. In that case probably the best basic catcher in the game but at a price. Protected adequetly by the rest of the team but with strength 3 are a bit less risky. Generally elves seem to collapse under the wieght of there own casualties if a player is not careful/unlucky but at least the line elfs are cheaper to repace than the regular elves.

Necros
120k 8/3!/3/8! Claws, Frenzy, Regen, GA
Included just because. Could be a catcher, once you have finished slaughtering the opposition! On a tough team that can do protection well if the wolf doesn't use its speed.

Is perhaps part of the problem just how good the opposing teams are? Should they be brought down to the humans level? Elf catchers coming down to str 2? So say gutter runers for 90k? (Look at current cost of team 4 Lineman 200k, 1 Thrower 70k, 4 Gutter Runners 320k, 2 Blitzers 180k, 3 Rerolls 180k, 1 Apothecary 50k.)

[burgun824]

Is perhaps part of the problem just how good the opposing teams are? Should they be brought down to the humans level? Elf catchers coming down to str 2? So say gutter runers for 90k? (Look at current cost of team 4 Lineman 200k, 1 Thrower 70k, 4 Gutter Runners 320k, 2 Blitzers 180k, 3 Rerolls 180k, 1 Apothecary 50k.)

I'll buy this. I would have far less of a problem with ST2 catchers if ALL other catchers were considered ST2. I would still argue that they all probaly should be ST3, but at least we wouldn't have the "what's good for the goose doesn't apply to the gander" situation that we currently have.

[Kort]

Is perhaps part of the problem just how good the opposing teams are? Should they be brought down to the humans level?

I think power creep is the main reason why Humans are not as competitive as the fluff seems to suggest. Humans were initially designed as a middle-of-the-road team but have been pushed into the agility-oriented side since new bashier rosters have been added to the game.

While Humans do ok against more agile rosters, they do have somewhat inadequate tools to handle bashier opponents in the long run.

The last set of rules did not them help too much either. Journeymen are basic linos, fouling has been nerfed, popularity has been nerfed (Ohter teams can start with their full rosters), Big Guys and AV8 are quite fragile when facing Claw, etc. The only bright side is the introduction of good general skills such as Wrestle and Fend.

[Chris]

Does anyone have the data for humans in FUMBBL and Cyanide league environments?

(And perhaps more pertinently how the best players do with each race - is for instance their ability with humans consisently less than other races?)