BB Mag #6

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:38 pm

I can't believe sombody seriously asked, "What do you give an ogre blocker for his 6th skill?" lol

The answer is the same thing you give a zombie for hi 6th skill.

Sixpack595 · Post by **Sixpack595** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 6:03 pm

OK, we need Ogres to get SPPs by something other than Cas or it will just be a blood bath. I'd like to see:

0-6 (or

Lineman: 6 5 1 9 regular traits/skills 120K
0-2 Blitzer: 6 5 2 9 regular traits/skills + Block 140K
0-2 Runner:6 5 2 8 regular traits/skills + Sure Hands 140K
0-8 (or 6) Gobbos as per gobbo list

Rerolls 80K
Let thge Ogres use the RRs, they won't have more than 1 or 2 for a very long time.

Require that Ogres equal or exceed Gobbos to keep them from starting with rerolls or positionals.

Just an idea, but we could say FF is halved for Ogres rounding down. Ogres have enough troubble tying their shoes let alone finding a stadium, and what human in his right mind would risk sitting between 10,000 blood thirsty ogre fans no matter how much he likes the team. This slows their progression by lowering their income, costing an extra 10K at start up, and hurts on the kick off table. Maybe double cost Apoths...who would work on a Ogre flailing about in pain?

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:33 pm

#1. the standard rookie ogre needs to be on the roster if you want the roster to be taken seriously by Fanatic or the BBRC. The 5 5 2 9 ogre blitzer is negotiable only in number allowed.

#2. The team should really only develop through casualties and about 1 or 2 TD's a game. This is no different than chaos, dwarfs, and undead. After playetesting the early form of this roster I can assure you that it will not be a bloodbath. In 5 games the team didn't score anymore casualties than a typical undead or chaos team. A decent coach soon learns that the ST 5 is not this team's offensive strength. This is very defintely a defensive team. If you try to attack hard right from the beginning you'll have alot of boneheaded ogres and ogres on their back.

#3. if you take mighty blow away from the blockers this would be no different than a team of black orc blockers. Strong but pathetic.

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:48 pm

Pariah wrote:Strong but pathetic.

Isn't that how the team is supposed to be?

From what i've seen the latest draft is the only Ogre team that I would think about allowing in our league.

I would prefer to see re-rolls for the ogres at appropriate prices, even if they do get used on BH or RS results then they are gone for the turn, and how many of these rolls will a team make in a turn, let alone a game?

I prefer that the blockers don't get MB.

I would also prefer they not get general skill access but as Zombie says this will create a situation where they run out of skills. The cahnces of them getting this far are slim but it could still be a problem getting approval from fanatic with this problem i believe?

Also I do think the rules need ammending so that BH players cannot assist RS ones.

Just adding my opinions on what's been put forward so far.

Thetian · Post by **Thetian** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:57 pm

Code: Select all

0-12  Ogre Blocker    5  5  2  9  Big Guy, Really Stupid,Think Skull  90k str 
0-2   Ogre Blitzer    5  5  2  9  Big Guy, Bonehead, Thick Skull, Mighty Blow, TTM  120k str 
0-6   Goblin Catcher  6  2  3  7  Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff   40k, agility 
Rerolls: 60K

Big Guy = no rerolls for the ogres.
No Mighty Blow for the blockers.
Really Stupid for the blockers.
No Gen skill access for the ogres.

This is where I would start with playtesting an ogre team.

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:12 pm

After listening to the feedback and discussing this list with another BBRC member, here's what I'm going to suggest for playtest:

Code: Select all

Ogre Team List

Qty   Position      MA ST AG AV Skills                       Cost  Access
---   ------------  -- -- -- -- ---------------------------  ----  ------
0-4   Ogre Blitzer  5  5  2  9  Mighty Blow, Thick Skull,    120k   G, S
                                 Throw Team Mate, Bonehead
0-12  Ogre Blocker  4  5  1  9  Really Stupid, Thick Skull    90k    S
0-4   Goblin        6  2  3  7  Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff    40k    A

Re-rolls:  80k
Apothecary:  50k

This is, of course, just a first draft. I'm still undecided about the Ogre Blockers and whether or not they should have Mighty Blow. I decided to leave it off for a couple reasons:

1) It gives them another ST skill to gain, since they have no access to General skills. This should put off the critical problem of running out of skills to Skill #7, which -- if an Ogre ever reaches -- we could expect them to have rolled doubles or a stat increase at least once.
2) It makes the MB/Piling On combo take longer. With Piling On as it is now, this is a good idea -- if Piling On isn't applied after the dice roll, I don't think this would be as problematic.
3) The absolute floor in price for a ST5/MB player has to be 100k. By removing MB, I can reasonably drop them to 90k and give the team a little more flexibility in starting setups.

I'm not sure if this will fly with the rest of the BBRC and Jervis, though -- honestly, MB is one of the things that really defines the Big Guys. Still, I'm willing to give it a try for now. You can playtest either variety if you want: 100K with MB, or 90K without.

Ogres don't have Big Guy on their own teams, so they can use re-rolls. However, their re-rolls cost 80k apiece, and with the highest average player costs, they can't afford many to start. It's safe to say they won't be re-rolling often, and Bonehead -- even with a re-roll -- is a 25% chance of failure. This also helps make up for the lack of General Skill access on the Goblins and Blockers, at least when it comes to ball-handling.

For now, assume that Bonehead players can reduce RS to Bonehead levels. The fact of the matter is that the Ogre Blitzers will be needed for a lot of purposes which will take them away from the Blockers, and the high cost will limit their availability considerably. If this team appears to strong, I'll advocate a change to include Boneheaded players into the RS definition.

Throw Teammate has been removed from the Blockers. I'm not sure if this is an issue, since they only have 1 AG and they're Really Stupid to boot, but it better defines the Ogre Blitzers as a separate position, since they'd likely be doing all the throwing. I'm iffy on this one, but I think it's really a matter of semantics. The Blockers wouldn't be throwing players often anyways.

Please playtest this and report any game results/observations to me. Also please give the BBMag #6 team a test game or two -- knowing that there are balance problems with them and having data to back it up will help the debate on making changes to it in the future.

Hope everyone's enjoyed this debate and is at least reasonably pleased with the result.

Milo

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:30 pm

Perhaps we could allow blockers to gain the TTM skill. This would stop the problem of what happens if (yeah, right! When!) they gained their 7th skill if they had no doubles or Stat increases.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:31 pm

I seem to be having problems putting this team into TeamTracker, so if someone manages it I'd be grateful for a copy.

Piepgrass · Post by **Piepgrass** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:43 pm

I have tested teh bbmag#6 team 2 times.
Rookie ogre against a rookie dwarf team I won 4-1

Rookie ogre against norse where i won 3-1

So fare it seems Way owerpowered. The next 2 testmatches will be against orcs and Lizards. If i winn these 2 as well i wont use it anymore.

Poul

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:49 pm

What were the casualty results on those games, Piepgrass?

Piepgrass · Post by **Piepgrass** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:53 pm

Against the dwafs 6-2 in my favour.
Against the norse 9-1 in my favour.

For the record we used the same d6 and block dice.

Poul

Post by **Dave** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:31 pm

I guess there is no more need for testing then ...

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:42 pm

There's ALWAYS more need for testing, Dave. Piepgrass's test of the BBMag 6 roster seem pretty damning, but it's too small a sample size to really be too convincing. Plus, the new roster needs a LOT of playtesting, particularly in a league environment. It will be interesting to see if the team starts too strong or can develop to be too strong.

I know I plan to test it in my upcoming league season, but the more results, the better.

Milo

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 10:04 pm

Thanks to Steven (sorry, don't know your alias

), I have the roster on Teamtracker, so anyone want to test the ogre team (PBeM obvoiusly).

Post by **Dave** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 10:07 pm

I know milo, my winks got lost somewhere between adding and 'submit'

Might give it a try tomorrow...

Talk Fantasy Football

BB Mag #6

New Ogre Playtest List