BB Mag #6

[darthnoir]

I think the question is: Should Ogres be able to use re-rolls? I'm inclined to think they shouldn't, personally. The fluff doesn't support it -- Ogres are dumb, flat-out. The rules don't support it, either, since several people have already pointed out that we might need an exception to the re-roll rules for the Bonehead / Really Stupid roll.

That said, I'm not opposed to 60k re-rolls if all the Ogres have Big Guy. that would mean the goblins would be the only ones who could use the re-rolls. (60k is the Goblin team's re-roll cost.)

Of course, if we don't give them re-roll access on the Ogres, they'll have serious ball-handling problems, and be perhaps more incompetent than we'd like. So, I think they need to have access to stuff like Sure Hands.


Milo

I feel it is better to err on the side of being "under powered" to start with. Adding to a roster to help beef it up down the road seems to be a smoother way of handling things. For example the Kroxigor now gets mighty blow, High Elves now get 2 more catchers, Dark Elves get 2 more blitzers, etc.

[Zombie]

For the record this is the roster that a lot of the TBB folks agreed on after a couple months of debate for a decent Ogre team:

Code: Select all

Qty    Position         Mv St Ag Av   Skills & Traits        Cost   Skills
0-12   Ogre Lineman     5  4  1  8    Big Guy, Bone Head,   80,000  ST 
                                       Thick Skull   

0-2    Ogre Blitzer     5  5  2  9    Big Guy, Bone Head, 
                                      Mighty Blow,         120,000  GN,ST 
                                      Thick, Skull,
                                      Throw Team Mate

0-2    Ogre Blocker     4  5  1  10   Big Guy Bone Head,   120,000  GN,ST
                                      Mighty Blow, 
                                      Thick Skull

0-2    Goblins          6  2  3  7    Right Stuff, Dodge,   40,000  AG
                                      Stunty

Re-Rolls: 90,000

Galak

Doesn't make sense. Sauri have +1MA, +1AV, no big guy negative, no bonehead and access to general skills, and yet they cost the same as your linemen. What gives?

[Darkson]

Good point, darthnoir.

Seems to be the why to go. Can you imagine the uproar from Orge coaches if they all suddenly gained BG?


On a seperate note, if this (or a similar) play tested team came official, I would buy it, gaining GW money, so goodluck with the ear-bending Milo.

[Darkson]

Doesn't make sense. Sauri have +1MA, +1AV, no big guy negative and no bonehead and yet they cost the same as your linemen. What gives?

Well, that teams been there for a while, why not mention it then?

[Thadrin]

Doesn't make sense. Sauri have +1MA, +1AV, no big guy negative, no bonehead and access to general skills, and yet they cost the same as your linemen. What gives?

Dark elf and High Elf throwers are identical but priced different. What gives?

Its about supporting cast as much as anything else I think. And keeping Ogres crap.

[Dangerous Dave]

OK I hope that this debate actually achieves something....


1 a revised team list for the Ogre team;

2 a new process for designing new teams; and

3 new model designs happen after the team design process


First up thanks to Milo for actively contributing to this. I'm sure that most of the other TBBers are grateful for his involvement.

Second, I think that the team is headed in the right direction. Personally, I would prefer that the Ogre team had some ST 4 in it eg Half-Ogres rather than being all ST 5. If this is not possible, then adding Really Stupid is a must for a number of the players.

I also believe that the Blockers should not have Throw Team Mate nor Mighty Blow.

Restricting the Blockers to Strength skills is also a good idea. This means that should the Ogre team have a leader it must be one of the standard Ogres (Blitzers in the list).

I am happy with Mestari's list except that the Blockers should not have Mighty Blow and their cost should be reduced to 80k plus all Ogres whould have Thick Skull.


Finally, in order to avoid repeating the mistakes we are trying to rectify, the team needs to be tested properly. Not just at TR 100 where I believe the team will struggle... but after 10, 20 and 30 games. The team also needs to be tested against teams of higher and lower TRs, bashing, agility and fast.


I am happy to help via PBEM - but this method of testing is slow and to get the testing done, we may need manufacture a team to compete at different TRs. Not ideal but better than not testing at all stages of development.


Thoughts?



Dave

[Darkson]

I'd be happy to help with testing, but I'm limited to PBeM.

[Zombie]

Doesn't make sense. Sauri have +1MA, +1AV, no big guy negative and no bonehead and yet they cost the same as your linemen. What gives?

Well, that teams been there for a while, why not mention it then?

I didn't read that thread.

Doesn't make sense. Sauri have +1MA, +1AV, no big guy negative, no bonehead and access to general skills, and yet they cost the same as your linemen. What gives?

Dark elf and High Elf throwers are identical but priced different. What gives?

Its about supporting cast as much as anything else I think. And keeping Ogres crap.

Yeah, but there's a 10k difference and then there's a 60k difference! I don't mind the 10k one, but the 60k one looks just too weird.

[Zombie]

Should Blockers have Mighty Blow?
Should the Ogres have Big Guy?
Should Blockers have Throw Teammate?

1. Yes.
2. Yes, if only for consistency but also to keep the team in check.
3. I don't mind either way.

As for access to general, i believe they should all have it. The strength category doesn't even have 7 skills in it, and you already start with mighty blow. What do you do when you roll for your 6th skill without double? Just ignore it and gain no skill? To avoid this exception, it's better to give them access to general.

And as for really stupid, it should be changed to the way it was before where boneheads couldn't help them.

[Dave]

1: No, for starters, you can allways add it later
2: Yes, but I like the Mestari's (I think, sorry if it was someone else's) idea that as the biggies are in a natural enviroment the'd behave 'normal'
3: No, same as 1, can allways be added for the fun of splatting gobbo's

I like this team

[Ghost of Pariah]

Zombie, not sure where you get a 60K difference but the price difference comes from wanting the ogres to be under powered and the fact that 0-12 are available, not 0-6.
I just can't believe I'm hearing that the Ogre Blockers should have gen access and start with mighty blow! Do you guys realize how fast this team will have 7 or 8 players on the pitch with ST 5, Block and Mighty Blow!?!

Think ahead, this team needs to suck at start up and continue to suck. Also remember that this team is going to advance by causing casualties, not touch downs. Do you want a team like you are suggesting in your league?

[MickeX]

What do you do when you roll for your 6th skill without double? Just ignore it and gain no skill? To avoid this exception, it's better to give them access to general.

The fluff reason: There's only so much that fits into the average Ogre brain

The rules reason: This will problably happen very seldom anyway.

But sure, adding a new rule is always an obstacle, especially for the process of changing JJ's mind.

Micke

[Mestari]

Do you guys realize how fast this team will have 7 or 8 players on the pitch with ST 5, Block and Mighty Blow!?!

Or with Piling on... Now that I realised that the team would too easily get the MB/POn killer combo, I'd vote for no MB for the blockers instead. No gen access either.
But definitely allow the entire team to use rerolls.

[Sputnik]

Let me give you a alternate scenario: if we DON'T give them General Access, they'll be forced to stock up on Strength skills -- stuff like Break Tackle, Piling On, etc. They'd be less competent, but probably more lethal. Not sure if that's the route we want to take with an all ST5 team.

Just my short comments here: NO! That's not the route to go.

I thought of playing AGAINST such a team. I know at least one coach who would do the following:

If all ogres have MB right from the start he would pick up piling on on every ogre to get the second skill via the cas route and he would also easily waste two seasons to get a "competitive" team. He would protect the ball with the gobbos (probably not even pick it up for the fluff and laugh about this) and kill as many opponents as possible. Maybe he wins games because of no resistance left. Maybe not. The second skill is just five cas away! He will go for it.

However I will have to build up a new team after only one match due to too many injuries.

So I vote for not giving the blockers MB from the start. Then they will indeed need a while to get MB, PO and Block. But otherwise they might kill your team within one half or not in two games. Sorry, not worth a gamble for me!

Sputnik

[BigD]

I've gotta agree with Sputnik. Mighty Blow is just way to strong for a starting Ogre Team. This team is better than the BBMag6 version but I've gotta say that I don't see myself playing them. Yeah they need the Goblins, I can see that and with the history of the Gobbos and Ogres no issues there at all. Much better than Snotlings. We should actually make the players work for the MB skill and acquire SPPs first. Afterall, throw Block, Mighty Blow, Piling On onto 8 Ogres and it doesn't really matter does it. At the end of their first turn the opponent is going to be down at least 3 players, probably 4 with a blitzing Ogre as well so theres goes one third of his team. If at least he has to earn MB hes going to need 31SPPs before he gets this nasty combination. Otherwise its going to be 16SPPs which is definitely doable after say 6 games. Make them work for it! The rest of us have too!

As for whether I'll buy the figures, well I've gotta say I'm not sure actually. I love Big Guy Teams and to date have enjoyed playing Orcs, Undead and Lizardmen. The Ogres were a team I was seriously looking forward to purchasing and playing. But not any more. Generally I'd say that as a collector I'd buy the figures and have them painted for a team somewhere down the line. But at the moment I'm not sure.

Having been looking forward to this team for so long I'm pissed of at GW for butchering what was potentially a great team. But I'm going to look at it another way. Why not buy these figures, NOT for playing in an Ogre Team but for using with our regular teams. Afterall Humans with a great looking Ogre Figure isn't a bad option, and as far as figures goes, these have to be some of the best we've seen from GW to date. Now they've just got to sort the team out.

BigD