Galak's LRB7 test rules coming to FUMMBL

[neverworking]

I think Vampires are a major oddity on that list. I think they are an amazingly challenging team to play, but I have seen a number of very good coaches able to pull off some amazing things with them and have significant success. In the hands of some coaches they are an abysmal team for certain. I would be careful of tinkering with them much though just because of what very good coaches can do with them already. In many ways I think they are exactly what a tier 2 team should be: a tremendous challenge for an experienced player to take on that can actually accomplish quite a lot when used properly, but wildly unforgiving if you make mistakes or don't understand how to play and/or develop them.

[garion]

I think Vampires are a major oddity on that list. I think they are an amazingly challenging team to play, but I have seen a number of very good coaches able to pull off some amazing things with them and have significant success. In the hands of some coaches they are an abysmal team for certain. I would be careful of tinkering with them much though just because of what very good coaches can do with them already. In many ways I think they are exactly what a tier 2 team should be: a tremendous challenge for an experienced player to take on that can actually accomplish quite a lot when used properly, but wildly unforgiving if you make mistakes or don't understand how to play and/or develop them.

Trust me that change is the smallest of small changes, I love vamps and would consider my self to be a good but not great vampire coach, however giving them P skills makes very little difference, it just gives them an extra development path to take if they want it. Believe me when I say almost all of the passing skills would be ignored anyway. I might go for Pass and Accurate on one vamp once they reach a high TV but that would be all. The challange with vamps is keeping your thralls on the pitch, at least for me it is. I have seen other changes, such as Plasmoid - Thick Skull to vamps. Personally I think that is too much because it is covering up their massive flaw. Bloodlust. However I am still quite eager to give them a bash to see how much it elevates them

Next tourney for me will be flings and vamps if I can get them both.

[cbbakke]

I think Vampires are a major oddity on that list. I think they are an amazingly challenging team to play, but I have seen a number of very good coaches able to pull off some amazing things with them and have significant success. In the hands of some coaches they are an abysmal team for certain. I would be careful of tinkering with them much though just because of what very good coaches can do with them already. In many ways I think they are exactly what a tier 2 team should be: a tremendous challenge for an experienced player to take on that can actually accomplish quite a lot when used properly, but wildly unforgiving if you make mistakes or don't understand how to play and/or develop them.

I agree that some coaches can do amazing things with some of the odd ball teams, but I would guess those coaches are just that damn good. If two coaches of equal skill play and one is a top tier team and the other is vampire. My prediction would be that the top tier team would win a lot more then the vampires.

[koadah]

I think Vampires are a major oddity on that list. I think they are an amazingly challenging team to play, but I have seen a number of very good coaches able to pull off some amazing things with them and have significant success. In the hands of some coaches they are an abysmal team for certain. I would be careful of tinkering with them much though just because of what very good coaches can do with them already. In many ways I think they are exactly what a tier 2 team should be: a tremendous challenge for an experienced player to take on that can actually accomplish quite a lot when used properly, but wildly unforgiving if you make mistakes or don't understand how to play and/or develop them.

I agree that some coaches can do amazing things with some of the odd ball teams, but I would guess those coaches are just that damn good. If two coaches of equal skill play and one is a top tier team and the other is vampire. My prediction would be that the top tier team would win a lot more then the vampires.

So what? That's part of the game.

It gives a different kind of variety.

[plasmoid]

Hi Thraug,
the 'tiers' are designed to be in the game.
You're certainly not alone in disliking that premise.

You can check out my alternative, more balanced, house rules:
http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/NTBB.htm

Or read a bit here:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=34187

Enjoy
Martin

[cbbakke]

I think Vampires are a major oddity on that list. I think they are an amazingly challenging team to play, but I have seen a number of very good coaches able to pull off some amazing things with them and have significant success. In the hands of some coaches they are an abysmal team for certain. I would be careful of tinkering with them much though just because of what very good coaches can do with them already. In many ways I think they are exactly what a tier 2 team should be: a tremendous challenge for an experienced player to take on that can actually accomplish quite a lot when used properly, but wildly unforgiving if you make mistakes or don't understand how to play and/or develop them.

I agree that some coaches can do amazing things with some of the odd ball teams, but I would guess those coaches are just that damn good. If two coaches of equal skill play and one is a top tier team and the other is vampire. My prediction would be that the top tier team would win a lot more then the vampires.

So what? That's part of the game.

It gives a different kind of variety.

The "So what" is the part I dont like about the game. Just because it was intended does not mean that it is good. I realize that was the intent of variety but many leagues are showing that it is having the opposite effect of intent.

[cbbakke]

Hi Thraug,
the 'tiers' are designed to be in the game.
You're certainly not alone in disliking that premise.

You can check out my alternative, more balanced, house rules:
http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/NTBB.htm

Or read a bit here:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=34187

Enjoy
Martin

How goes the play testing so far?

[dode74]

The "So what" is the part I dont like about the game. Just because it was intended does not mean that it is good. I realize that was the intent of variety but many leagues are showing that it is having the opposite effect of intent.

I'm sure you remember when the game was far fewer teams than we have now. Compared to that we do have far more variety.

"Good" is subjective. Personally I think that it is "good" that I know when I choose a team I am either handicapping myself or I am not. I also think that it is good that some teams don't play to win, but to be completely manic (goblins) or frustrating (flings) or simply unpredictable (vamps, ogres). 20 (24!) teams is not a right, it is a privilege compared to 2nd edition (9 teams, iirc, and orcs and humans were basically the same) - we actually now have 16 (arguably 14 - Humans and Khemri) main (T1) teams and another 8 (arguably 10) handicapped ones!

[neverworking]

I think Vampires are a major oddity on that list. I think they are an amazingly challenging team to play, but I have seen a number of very good coaches able to pull off some amazing things with them and have significant success. In the hands of some coaches they are an abysmal team for certain. I would be careful of tinkering with them much though just because of what very good coaches can do with them already. In many ways I think they are exactly what a tier 2 team should be: a tremendous challenge for an experienced player to take on that can actually accomplish quite a lot when used properly, but wildly unforgiving if you make mistakes or don't understand how to play and/or develop them.

Trust me that change is the smallest of small changes, I love vamps and would consider my self to be a good but not great vampire coach, however giving them P skills makes very little difference, it just gives them an extra development path to take if they want it. Believe me when I say almost all of the passing skills would be ignored anyway. I might go for Pass and Accurate on one vamp once they reach a high TV but that would be all. The challange with vamps is keeping your thralls on the pitch, at least for me it is. I have seen other changes, such as Plasmoid - Thick Skull to vamps. Personally I think that is too much because it is covering up their massive flaw. Bloodlust. However I am still quite eager to give them a bash to see how much it elevates them

Next tourney for me will be flings and vamps if I can get them both.

My post was a general statement on the notion rather than your specific proposal. Let's face it, opening the door will result in others making a variety of suggestions, some which might either take hold or at least distract. Giving them passing really isn't a big deal imo, currently if one doubles you can take pass or accurate and follow it up with strong arm or pro for a very similar result. So I agree that change won't make much difference, but encouraging average players to reach for the range ruler probably won't make them any easier to succeed with either. I will stick to my statement though that they are pretty much what a challenging team should be, full of potential but problematic to master as opposed to simply lacking potential but an opportunity to see how close to average you can be or lacking long term potential and see how long you can keep them competitive. Any significant buff to make Vampires better for the average will allow good coaches to have even crazier success.

I certainly think it would be more fun if we head towards the NTBB model. I am however saying there is a big difference between a tier that is "lacking now and always" vs. "hard as hell, tough to start but not actually lacking very much". Dode can probably clarify this, but unless I'm mistaken, in what was essentially the first season a Vampire team could have reached the 3rd division in the OCC 2 of the 4 divisions were won by Vampire coaches (so their opposition had also been similarly successful to rise to that division as well). In the league I run that has been between 36 and 40 coaches has seen a Vampire team in the finals 2 of the past 3 seasons with 1 championship (admittedly Delevus is ranked in the top 10 at the NAF), and another league I was apart of put up a couple of division championships for the Vamps.

[cbbakke]

The "So what" is the part I dont like about the game. Just because it was intended does not mean that it is good. I realize that was the intent of variety but many leagues are showing that it is having the opposite effect of intent.

I'm sure you remember when the game was far fewer teams than we have now. Compared to that we do have far more variety.

"Good" is subjective. Personally I think that it is "good" that I know when I choose a team I am either handicapping myself or I am not. I also think that it is good that some teams don't play to win, but to be completely manic (goblins) or frustrating (flings) or simply unpredictable (vamps, ogres). 20 (24!) teams is not a right, it is a privilege compared to 2nd edition (9 teams, iirc, and orcs and humans were basically the same) - we actually now have 16 (arguably 14 - Humans and Khemri) main (T1) teams and another 8 (arguably 10) handicapped ones!

So if you have 10 pieces of poop to smell instead of 5 do you feel like you have more variety? No you got more poop!! I do like variety but if the game is going to be based upon a league setting then having a coach almost pre decide his standing in the league by choice of team is an issue to me. If you take ten coaches who are all of the same skill and have 9 play tier 1 teams and the last coach play halfings. The halfings are not going to win the league ever. Ok ever is too strong of a term but that Halfing coach is going to be the league whipping boy.

[Chris]

Indeed, its like football, I mean who would support Charlton or Dagenham?

[GalakStarscraper]

The day the Tiers do not exist will be a sad day for this game IMO. I would have stopped playing Blood Bowl over a decade ago if not for the Tier system.

Tom

[cbbakke]

teams dont have to be exactly even but the margin of difference is pretty big right now imo

[dode74]

So if you have 10 pieces of poop to smell instead of 5 do you feel like you have more variety? No you got more poop!! I do like variety but if the game is going to be based upon a league setting then having a coach almost pre decide his standing in the league by choice of team is an issue to me. If you take ten coaches who are all of the same skill and have 9 play tier 1 teams and the last coach play halfings. The halfings are not going to win the league ever. Ok ever is too strong of a term but that Halfing coach is going to be the league whipping boy.

Actually you have 14 (16) T1 teams instead of 9 as well - which was actually the point I was making. If your fling player chose flings then he knew what he was getting into. What you see as "poop" others see as interesting, fun and varied.

[cbbakke]

well the same coach could handicap his halfing team to make it 'interesting" still. Having them not be little 2 spp running around the pitch would be a nice change of pace too