Galak's LRB7 test rules coming to FUMMBL

[plasmoid]

Hi Garion,
nice ideas. I see where you're coming from, but for me, a lot of it goes against what I'm trying to do with my NTBB variant.
I think if you don't keep changes truly minimal, they will not go over well.
Case in point - Amazons. Some people think they're fine. They'll hate what you did. Some people are adventurous, like yourself. They'll want to do something "different" and "better". I think the group that is on board with any creative/inspired/sweeping change is quite small.

In the same vein - I like some of the skill ideas.
But not enough to try to change them.

Cheers
Martin

[garion]

Thanks for the feedback, reply in red

Traits - we could argue about which ones should and shouldn't be until the cows come home. Can you confirm whether PO would be the current CRP PO under this system? I see nothing to say it wouldn't, but want to clarify Yes Po stays the same

I'm not so sure about leader as a trait - the whole idea of it is to reduce TV for rerolls, and by making it a trait it costs more. I don't know what I would choose as a passing trait, or even if one is necessary. Leader as a trait will still only cost 30k, as apposed to 50k-80k, I would prefer to keep it like this, as I do not like how all throwers are now is leader jockeys, I preferred it when they actually threw the ball but if people really want to leave it as, I’m not too fussed, I also like that chaos Dwarves wouldn’t be able to have it, which they shouldn’t be able too, after all they are chaotic

Changes to actions - good. Fouling needs a buff.
Changes to rules:
Secret weapons - I like the idea that more obvious weapons get sent off more easily, but think that the costs might need adjusting. agreed

Bribes - I assume you mean they always work? i.e. you always get the reroll? Yes, bribes are used to re-roll the referee calls, so for a 50% chance of sent off on a foul actually becomes a 75% chance of staying on

Fouling - Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but this seems like a BIG nerf to fouling - you basically have a 50% chance of being sent off, rising to 83.33% with the eye on you. Under current rules it is never more than 33%. Under LRB4 the foul was spotted on a 6, with the eye being a 2+. I'd prefer that, tbh. Yep, I know where you are coming from here, it does seem quite high, but then sneaky git players take it back to LRB4 rules of 1+ and 4+ also bribes allow you to re-roll this roll, making it a 75% chance of getting away with it if the eye is on you maybe moving it to 3 and 5 would be better though

Arguing the call - nice to have back.
SE - good
Bank - excellent.
Skill changes:
Stand Firm - curious about this being a G skill (trait or otherwise). I think that making it a trait will be quite a nerf to some S based teams where Guard and Stand Firm really help the positional war. Any players with G access can take this on a Double anyway, and because of its added effectiveness, I personally think it would be a lot more common, in all the games I have played in CRP I have only ever seen SF on Zon Blitzers (see new roster changes) and Big Guys, but with the new rules for big guys I foresee them as being used more for inflicting damage, also taunt gives bashers another options instead of SF

Sneaky Git - back to the old eye for this player, then. Personally I prefer the "acts as guard for fouls" version. Disagree, its just boring this will make fouling a lot better with stunties which is what they re all about

DP - ok. Not sure if 2+ combined with the 1+ from the action change isn't a bit much. More on fouling later... this is why the chance of sending off is so high, yes you will probably get sent off but fouling should be high risk, high reward, defiantely keeping those

Dauntless - too much, I personally think. It'll make horns + dauntless massively powerful - basically giving you a 5/6 chance of a 2d block on any player with ST4 without assists. Disagree, too powerful for what, it just helps knock stuff over? Chaos need flavour and this brings it. They have suffered a nerf to their killer combo because they would now need two doubles for the two traits, gives you great odds for knocking bigger stuff than you over, but for me they should be able to and you don’t get much bigger than chaos anyway really

New skills:
Swift kick - very nice.
Taunt - I think this is excellent. It'll really make positioning interesting and is a very powerful skill. I'd consider making this one a general trait over stand firm (which I'd prefer still to be an S skill). it isn’t good enough to be a trait, its not too dissimilar to stand firm or side step as they are now, Losing Stand firm to a trait and having this instead as another option is a nice trade I think, also the no falling from dodges is what makes stand firm so great

Kick'n'run - meh. Don't know how much it'd be taken yeah probably not too often, but would still be quite nice for a stunty team I think. It will help you with positioning a little

Soft Lander - possibly combine with sure feet? again just a stunty skill really. It would just offer your one touchdown specialist a little bit more protection, it can be a very sad day when your Catch Ag4 +ma fling lands on his face from a TTM and dies was also thinking of making right stuff players pay half rpice for agility skills, but not sure, it may be too out there

(skipped the star players ) Dont’t they are fun

Roster changes:
Ogres - ok.
Khemri - Not a fan. How about lose decay on TGs, make AV8 and give them thick skull? They'd stay on the pitch about the same amount as they currently do (a touch less, actually) but wouldn't suffer as many debilitating injuries. Naa, khemri don’t need any nerf for losing decay, I used to play against them when they had 4 Mummies, losing decay and gaining thick skulls on their positional is a small buff and a very welcome one for any khemri fans that are sick of building a team to have their TGs ruined by decay.

Human - It's a good start. I'd like to see 0-2 8247 Dodge Catch GA catchers, but that doesn't seem popular. That is the same stat line and skill set as they already have and no point in losing the option of having 4.

Vampire - sure, why not?
Orcs - Why? I don't see the need, especially if human blitzers are coming down in price. Im not sure about this one either

Dwarves - I think dwarves need tackle on longbeards. I'd prefer the "right stuff" changes proposed by Plasmoid so that stunties get protected, but think that this will really hurt a very slow team which relies on preventing the other team moving. Personally I think the right stuff change is just too much, it’s too big a departure from all previous editions, and I think it will just make playing stunties too annoying, plus the added power of fouling makes stunties far far better anyway, but I’m still not sure about the dwarf change either, probably just leave them and orcs alone really

Slann - not played them, so won't comment.
Amazon - Waaaay to much ST2. Nice to see the Krox, and the variation in stats with the Blitzers and Catchers, but the linewomen need ST2. you didn’t read the updated version, check the link again

General point - fouling seems to be a major focus, and I like that you want to change it. What I am not so keen on is that to be effective under this ruleset it needs to be carried out by skilled players. Very little fouling will happen with the eye as you have it set up (50% chance to be sent off? No thanks!) and people will have to try to build dedicated foulers before they'll even try it. I'd probably keep DP at +1 (as it is now), keep the action change, make SG act as guard, keep Swift Kick and go back to the lrb4 eye.

no point using the eye if you make fouling +1, the problem with the eye was it meant that games often only had fouls in turn 1 and 8 of each half which seemed daft , fouling is a lot more powerful now and should really be saved for a good opportunity rather than just fouling on the first turn abd last turn of each half. However 4 and 6 might be too high a chance of sending off, maybe 3 and 5 would be the way to go actually, while keeping everything else the same and then sneaky git will be even better, and fouling with the eye on your with a bribe will still give you a 55% chance of saying on before the argue roll.

[garion]

Hi Garion,
nice ideas. I see where you're coming from, but for me, a lot of it goes against what I'm trying to do with my NTBB variant.
I think if you don't keep changes truly minimal, they will not go over well.
Case in point - Amazons. Some people think they're fine. They'll hate what you did. Some people are adventurous, like yourself. They'll want to do something "different" and "better". I think the group that is on board with any creative/inspired/sweeping change is quite small.

In the same vein - I like some of the skill ideas.
But not enough to try to change them.

Cheers
Martin

Ah you misunderstand, read back a page or two, voyager wanted us to put where we were up to with our changes so far. This is how I would like LRB7 to look, although I haven’t finished, but this is just for me
But he also wants you to put where you are up to with your more minimal changes, so we have two running house rules running through this thread side by side.

[dode74]

Bribes - 25% is still very high risk to sending off. Currently it's between ~1/18 and 1/36 after the bribe.

Fouling (general comment) - I still think the main problem I have with it is that it only really becomes effective if you skill up a specific fouler. Even using 3 and 5 a 33% chance of being sent off (with SG) is still the same as the maximum chance you have under the current ruleset. I don't see how your version of SG is specifically better for stunties - it has the same effect on everyone. I think that K'n'R has more benefit for the stunties myself.

Dauntless - point made. I'd go with that.

Taunt - I think you are undervaluing it. This skill could really screw up an advancing cage, for example.

Khemri - My change keeps the current odds of leaving the field through casualty roughly the same while reducing the odds of long term injury. That is a buff. My concern is that your own buff is a step too much.

Humans - read it again - 8247.

Zons - answered in your thread.

[garion]

Bribes - 25% is still very high risk to sending off. Currently it's between ~1/18 and 1/36 after the bribe.

Fouling (general comment) - I still think the main problem I have with it is that it only really becomes effective if you skill up a specific fouler. Even using 3 and 5 a 33% chance of being sent off (with SG) is still the same as the maximum chance you have under the current ruleset. I don't see how your version of SG is specifically better for stunties - it has the same effect on everyone. I think that K'n'R has more benefit for the stunties myself. So I mean it could be - no eye you get sent of on a 5 or 6. If the eye is on you then you get sent off on a 3, 4, 5, 6. With Sneaky git that would change to sent of on a 6 with no eye and on a 4, 5, 6. So with the +1 to av back and the +2 to DP bac as well as with bribes and argue the ref available, don't you think thats enough?

Why is it so good for stunties, because they are cheap enough to spam it making it a viable option creating fouling team, which elves couldn't do, also they have access to the swift kick trait which will double up very nicely.

Dauntless - point made. I'd go with that.

Taunt - I think you are undervaluing it. This skill could really screw up an advancing cage, for example. it could, but no more or less than Stand Firm or Side Step really, and only if you block a player with said skill, with your cage, there will always be other options, it would add another tactical element to the game and the point of my rule set is to create variety when teams develop. Lots of nice choices

Khemri - My change keeps the current odds of leaving the field through casualty roughly the same while reducing the odds of long term injury. That is a buff. My concern is that your own buff is a step too much. Again anything less than giving all of the TGs Mighty Blow again is still a nerf from LRB4 and they werent great then either.

Humans - read it again - 8247. Ah sorry missed the 4, and a big no from me for that

Zons - answered in your thread.

[dode74]

Fouling - no, honestly. And low-cost linemen teams will benefit more than anyone, I think (undead, necro, human, orc). My main point remains that it will take a player with several skills before it becomes really viable.

Taunt - Like I said, it's a good skill. I just think that a skill which allows you to position an opponent's player on his turn could be very powerful indeed. Taunt/sidestep/fend would be a very nice set of skills to have.

Khemri - I think that Khemri did a bit too much damage under LRB4. They may not have been a great team to win with, but they certainly were a good team to bash with. I would lower their reroll cost to help them win games (helps make up for the low AG).

Humans - why not? It'd make them an anti-skaven (i.e. emphasis on the opposites - skaven with 2x S access ST3, 4x A access ST2AG4 and humans with 4x S access ST3, 2x A access ST2 AG4). I think it would be a nice switch.

[garion]

Fouling - no, honestly. And low-cost linemen teams will benefit more than anyone, I think (undead, necro, human, orc). My main point remains that it will take a player with several skills before it becomes really viable.

Taunt - Like I said, it's a good skill. I just think that a skill which allows you to position an opponent's player on his turn could be very powerful indeed. Taunt/sidestep/fend would be a very nice set of skills to have.

Khemri - I think that Khemri did a bit too much damage under LRB4. They may not have been a great team to win with, but they certainly were a good team to bash with. I would lower their reroll cost to help them win games (helps make up for the low AG).

Humans - why not? It'd make them an anti-skaven (i.e. emphasis on the opposites - skaven with 2x S access ST3, 4x A access ST2AG4 and humans with 4x S access ST3, 2x A access ST2 AG4). I think it would be a nice switch.

Fouling, fair enough, i guess we will just have to agree to disagree there, I personally think it would be fine, and it discourage teh foul only in turn 18 and thing enough for me too. Oly play testing would tell here i think

Taunt, yup that would be a nice combo, a new nice combo is a great thing to see, there are too few in this edition

Humans, I think are already a great top tier rookie team and sub 1600TV team, not in the elite bracket mind, and yes they do struggle late on, but they can still win games. I like humans as they are, which is the same as orcs versatile but with more focus on running, while orcs are slightly less versatile with have more focus on bash and St. I still love that match up even when I'm humans against higher TV orcs. Plus I think Hoshi Komi would help

I don't think we could ever get a community agreeing on what to do with humans, but for me -10k on blitzers is enough for now.

[dode74]

Taunt - we agree it's good, but what I am saying is that it is good enough to qualify as a trait based on the fact that it allows you to move an opponent's piece on their turn. It could be enough to prevent people blitzing your player as they might have to dodge away to continue their move, for example.

Humans are sub-par at high TV as they lack in stats. The 8247 catcher would help rectify that. If you wanted to re-nerf them at low TV a bit then you could remove dodge or catch (I'd go for dodge, personally).

Anyway, overall there are some nice ideas there. I like the concept of improving fouling, but I think we disagree how to do that. I also really like taunt and swift kick as skills.

[cbbakke]

New Skills
All these skills are new Swift Kick is important to this edition of the rules. The others are just nice extras. I would like to thank Freak_In_A_Frock for contributing all of them other than Swift Kick. Great stuff, thanks. I’m also open to changing any of the skill names below, so feel free to contact me with better suggestions.
Swift Kick (Agility Trait)
This player knows how to kick people when they are down; they have made an art form of it, they practice long and hard after training each night on fans that have volunteered to get a good kicking off their favourite players.
This skill allows players to re-roll an injury roll on a foul. No modifiers can be used on the re-rolled injury roll.

I would have to see how this pans out. I like the fact the reroll does not allow you to use dirty player.

Taunt (General Skill)
The player is a master at winding up the opposition. He taunts and insults them constantly.
When a player with Taunt is blocked or blitzed they may choose to use taunt even if knocked down, taunt means the attacker must always follow up if able to do so (take root for example would stop this)

interesting skill, but not sure I could see myself taking it. I think it would have to have an added effect to make it worth taking for me.

Kick’n’Run (Agility Skill)
Sometimes the best sort of kick is a running kick to the groin.
When this player declares a foul action the actual foul does not end the player’s movement and can continue to move after the foul is committed in the same way as a Blitz action. If the player is spotted then he must immediately leave the pitch as usual, and a turnover occurs.

same as above. Very interesting skill but not sure I could see taking it as a skill.

Soft Lander (Agility Skill)
This player has practiced falling over and is now a master of landing softly.
If the player fails a leap, GFI or landing from a TTM attempt they may subtract 2 from either the armour roll or injury roll. This obviously doesn't work with failed dodges or when being blocked/blitzed

I really like this skill, but think it needs a little bit more to be taken. right now I could only see taking it with a halfing that is getting thrown. How about subtracting 1 on failed dodge rolls?


Adding to a skill:
For Grab- Right now I think it is a weak skill. What about adding the effect of it applying tentacle effect on the player you block for a turn.

[cbbakke]

For Dwarves- I think them starting with tackle just makes them too vicious for a lot of other teams that rely on dodging. Amazon being the prime example. I think one of their issues longterm is no strength and their only big guy being a one drive only player. I think them having access to an ogre or something would really help them in high end. They can have the death roller as a star player or something.

For Humans- Versatility is suppose to be their trademark. Losing 2 catchers makes them just more vanilla. I think the 8 AV for the catchers is a step in the right direction for them.

High Elves- Very bland team right now. How about reducing two their catchers by two and added a new position
0-2 Elite Guard- 5349 Block, standfirm

The elite guard wear plate mail that protects them more but also slows them on the pitch. The elite guard are generally assigned to guard the prince of the team. They would have a roll of holding the front line.


Dark Elves- Currently they have 10 position players as opposed to the other elven teams who generally have 8. I would like to see their blitzers reduced to 2 and assassins improved.

[garion]

Lol so Dode thinks Taunt is too good, and Cbbake thinks its not good enough

It stays the same

Okay so made more changes, I think dode is right about Dauntless, so changed it back to CRP, because i dont want it to be a trait. However I have changed Multiblock back to LRb4 so it can be used on blitzes to make up for this somewhat.

Also added kick'n'run to the swift kick trait, so you can foul and move after with it otherwise people wouldnt take kick'n'run and it doesn't make swift kick much better anyway,

Changes Stand Firm to a Strength trait, taking it away from big guys except on doubles is too much, rules stay the same, also meddled with zons a bit more.

Moved Leader to General trait, no passing trait needed.

No more changes to humans, they re fine as they are with a -10k for blitzers, people just need to learn to play with them better

Definately not changing anything with elf rosters, i love them as they are.

[dode74]

Did you change the bank to 150k there? Or did I get an older version of the rules the first time? Either way, 100/150 works.

Apart from the Zons (which are WAY too cheap - 6337 and 3 skills for 60k when 6338 with none is 50k on other teams?) I'm ok with it.

I would question the necessity of the changes though - is there really a need for all of these to be a part of an "LRB7"? Certainly some are needed (fouling), but I would be very dubious about adding some of them without extensive (and I mean REALLY extensive) playtesting.

[cbbakke]

I have learned if Dodes and I actually agree on smoething then it HAS to be a good idea. I like the bank idea also. I think 150k is a little better then 100k but either works.

I like that your gathering ideas right now. I am not sure you want to test all the ideas at once, but gathering the info and then picking out what seems like good ideas (like your doing) seems very wise.


another idea I had:

Aging was hated and I can see why. Sucks having players retired for getting better. My idea was players getting a flaw "easily winded" when they got their 3rd skill. Idea being that their time on the pitch is catching up with them and they dont recovery as fast as they use too.

It starts at a 6+ on 2d6. After a drive the player with easily winded rolls 2d6 and if he rolls under 6 he has to sit out a drive to recover. Each skill they gain after that it goes up 1. so 7+, 8+ etc.

Hopes it would provide:
- Some extra attrition
- A little bit more game planning iwth roster. Maybe you don't want to start all your big fish on some drives
- Helping to cause a reason to develop a deeper bench.

[garion]

Did you change the bank to 150k there? Or did I get an older version of the rules the first time? Either way, 100/150 works.

Apart from the Zons (which are WAY too cheap - 6337 and 3 skills for 60k when 6338 with none is 50k on other teams?) I'm ok with it.

I would question the necessity of the changes though - is there really a need for all of these to be a part of an "LRB7"? Certainly some are needed (fouling), but I would be very dubious about adding some of them without extensive (and I mean REALLY extensive) playtesting.

Yeah changed the bank to 150, so as not to punish teams like vamps and ogres that spiral out of control very quickly.

yeah zons Im still not sure what to do with at all really.

Personally I think yes, for me the main problem with the rule set is the limited development path and the boring team development. If you look through all the skill changes I have made, I bet you are thinking off all kind of new players you would develop with the new Stand Firm, using Taunt to break cages, creating new fouling players, using tentacles again etc....

But yes, obviously it would need play testing, but it is a good base point to start from.

[garion]

After a lengthy discussion with someone on fumbbl, we came to a point that was pretty interesting.

So we were thinking, insted of DP being 2+ on either av or inj, it was +1 on av and +1 on injury

and sneaky git was the -2 to referee roll and +1 to injury.

This way the agile teams/stunties have less chance of being seen, while your zombies etc... have more chance of breaking armour. Also you still get the +1 to av for a foul.

So when combined you will have 2+ av, 2+ inj. I think I will go with that instead of the immediate +2 to injury so that one skill on its own isn't too powerful.