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Smeborg wrote:Carnis and Jimmy - let us know what the commonly seen 5 RR are used for in FUMBBL.
Thanks.
Only thing I can think of is tournament overtime.
There's no need for 5, but with overtime in tournaments, you essentially play an extra half under golden td rules(first TD wins), with rerolls from the end of the second half carrying over. Under LRB 4, a few teams stacked up on RR's to plan for possibly having to play 3 halves, especially bashers who might expect to finish normal time 1-1. It could be something to do with that.
I think 5 re-rolls is a bit excessive for slow bashy teams once they get mass block, but the risk with only 3 is that it doesn’t leave many options when you are low on players. Sooner or later you will have a game where the other team wins the blocking war either though luck, a better team or just being outplayed.
In that situation you can either try and protect your team for the next game (not much use if it’s a KO competition or a vital league game) or switch to elfball mode. Pestigors and rotters can move the ball reasonably well and are about as fast as most other bashy teams.
My own team is now 8-0-4, I had a real day of nuffling and lost 3 games on the trot vs Orcs, Undead and Necros, though admittedly I had been sat in the sun with a couple of drinks beforehand so that didn’t help. I did sack the –MA rotter as up till then the team had suffered only 1 or 2 cas per game but in those 3 I suffered 4 or 5 lost my leader rotter so bought a 3rd re-roll, had a Warrior get –AV, a pestigor –MA (he was a rookie so also got sacked as I had a full squad and cash to replace him).
Team is now slightly below 1500 and made up of the following.
Beast Guard
3 Warriors - Block, 1 is AV8
Warrior
Pestigor - Block, Sure Hands
Pestigor – Block
2 Pestigors
Rotter – Block, Dirty Player
2 Rotter
3 Rerolls
FF 8 (I think)
The last warrior is 1 spp away from a skill as I managed a TD with him so am tempted to try a pass or score with him. The big question is where to go next?
Beast will get SF on 2nd skill, I was planning on taking guard on the 1st warrior to get to 2nd skill but am getting fed up of being beaten up and may go MB to get him to 3rd skill quicker but a solid lump of 5 players with 4 block, high ST, AV, Guard, regen and FA is appealing.
For the Pestigors both rookies are near their 1st skill so I will give one wrestle then tackle and likely strip as Blodgers have been a pain lately, the other rookie will likely get block. Am unsure what to give the ball carrier when he gets his 3rd skill or the other Pestigors 2nd skill, am tempted by MB then Claw to deal with all the high AV on Cyanide. I think the ideal build would be 2 killers, 1 ball handler and 1 safety/hunter.
Rotters will probably start getting wrestle once I have 7 block on the rest of the team. Other skills I’m less sure of, some tackle would be useful as would fend, a kicker and maybe 2nd dp but I can’t see them living long at higher TV’s.
The other issue is when/if I buy a 4th re-roll and how many players I should get at this TV. The team has some cash saved but is still low on skills so 12 players seems right at the moment for 1500 TV Matched games.
Pestigors without skills are very bad players for their TV, something that needs to be considered in a TV matching format.
3RR is about the maximum I would go to at any TV.
I don't think you can plan too much with rotter skill ups, just take DP and foul with them till they die.
Wrestle is generally more useful on them than block though.
My team that won Crown of Sand on FUMBBL went with 2 killers ballcarrier and a guarder: http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=647978
I plan on taking 2 heads and tackle on the guarder if he lives that long, I kind of would like a safety but Guard takes precedence.
3rd skill I would take guard on that BC because he isn't very good.
I recommend waiting till you get an early stat or double to build a really good ball carrier.
I just looked over pages 74 and 75 and think this is an excellent thread Top love for a good thread.
Can i suggest that "old" lrb4 teams with 20+fan factor would of spend money on a 5th reroll because there is little else to spend the cash on.
Im not sure I have all the facts of what you are discussing so I could be wrong, but I would think 5 rr means you just were an older team that did not care. Also pre lrb5 the inducement system was terrible so who cares if you team is not efficient. Just a theory as fumbbl has some mega teams that have been around forever. My old 3rd edition teams had 6 rerolls and a wizard and a leader which was just a sign of the times. Fumbbl has the potential to still resurrect these sort of sides. - anyways i need to read from the start
I remember when hiring at least one too many RRs was good TR management because it let you ditch cash without risking your MVP on Freebooters.
Reason:''
What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
Those of you who have decent experience with Nurgle, what playstyles and/or teams does low-TV Nurgle have the most trouble with? I'm thinking fast, patient teams able to spread out the defense will be most successful at minimizing overlapping DistPres zones and enable a mobile passing game, without running into the Foul Appearance problems bash teams might experience. Am I way off-base here?
fidius wrote:Those of you who have decent experience with Nurgle, what playstyles and/or teams does low-TV Nurgle have the most trouble with? I'm thinking fast, patient teams able to spread out the defense will be most successful at minimizing overlapping DistPres zones and enable a mobile passing game, without running into the Foul Appearance problems bash teams might experience. Am I way off-base here?
Fidius
The most difficult team I have ever played against with Nurgle was well coached Vampires, because of their ability to negate tackle zones and Tentacles with Hypno-gaze. But this is based on a very small sample (one team), and it was well developed.
In tournaments, I have generally found Wood Elves (raw speed) and Pro-Elves (Nerves of Steel) to be more challenging than other opponents (without being runaway favourites). DEs and HEs, on the other hand, have always seemed relatively easy opponents. I don't like playing against well coached 'Flings in a tourney (patience is required), although I seem to always beat them in the end. Skaven, Norse and 'Zons seem easier opponents in tourneys than in leagues. Against bashy teams, honours seem about even, although I have to admit I don't like facing well coached Orcs. Nurgle vs. Dwarf in a tourney is one of the most sporting encounters you will experience.
At TV 100 in a league (i.e. at the start), I am not sure there are any opponents that are particularly more dangerous than others. Against any bashy team with lots of starting Block, it helps to win the toss (but I am sure this is not news!). ST3 teams with starting block who get lots of early Guard can be more difficult (Dwarfs, Norse).
One of the things I like about the Nurgle team in practice is the way they get similar results against all types of opponents. Of course this is not a flat even 50/50 across the board - I have tried to give the flavour.
fidius wrote:Those of you who have decent experience with Nurgle, what playstyles and/or teams does low-TV Nurgle have the most trouble with? I'm thinking fast, patient teams able to spread out the defense will be most successful at minimizing overlapping DistPres zones and enable a mobile passing game, without running into the Foul Appearance problems bash teams might experience. Am I way off-base here?
Fidius
Nurgle struggle against most teams at low TV. You have no block or ball handling skills and very expensive players so will need to either sacrifice positionals or re-rolls.
On offence you will need to block or the other team can just man mark your players and stop all progress dead, but without the block skill you will fail a 2D 1 in 9 times. As only the Beast of Nurgle has mighty block your chance of breaking AV8 without causing a turnover are about 15% whilst your chances of failing over are 11% so not great.
The team is pretty slow as well since Pestigors tend to be left as later purchases and they are basically human linemen with +1 ST when blitzing so not the greatest ball carriers.
I’d say Orcs were one of the toughest opponents as they have 4 ST4 pieces and a ST5 regen big guy too and their linemen are nice and cheap so make great fodder. They can easily tie up your bashers and then use the blitzers to hunt down rotters and pestigors whilst the throwers have sure hands and pass so that makes them much more reliable ball handlers. They have cheaper players too so will usually get more for their TV.
Amazons are of course one of the hardest teams to beat for non-dwarfs as you won’t have any tackle or block so the entire team is effectively a blodger vs you. Tents can be useful at pinning them down but you only have the 1 beast.
At 1000 TV flings can be a huge pain too, probably not the hardest team to beat but you will be expected to thrash them so it’s pretty much a lose-lose situation.
I played my first game with my Nurgle team last night. It was also my first game of Blood Bowl on the table top. A resounding 1-0 for the Nurgle!
They say you learn something from every game... last night I learnt not to dodge with the Beast! Don't ask! Pure accident. I now know to double check the tackle zones before you decide to move! To add insult to injury (quite literally 'cos the Beast died!) it was only the second move I'd managed to make with him as he kept failing his Stupidity rolls.
A few musings on my Stymie Nurgle team in the Orca Cola Cup (Cyanide league).
The team is 21 games old now.
BoN - skilless (previous Beast with SF and Guard died last game on a GFI)
3x Warrior: Block, Stand Firm
1x Warrior: Block
2x Pestigor: Wrestle
1x Pestigor: Wrestle, +1AG
1x Pestigor: Sure Hands, Kick-Off Return
3x Rotter - skilless (they die, but that's to be expected)
1x Rotter: Dirty Player
3 RR
Amounts to about 1650 TV.
I ended 4th in first season (9 games per season) in a group of mixed races but all starter teams. I promoted and 2nd season ended in a group of significantly more developed teams, which gave me 200 - 400K inducements per game, but it was a rough season, only going 2-1-6 W/D/L (one of the wins was a bye) and got demoted again.
Now 3 games in the 3rd season, I'm again at a disappointing 0-1-2 (draw against skaven, 2 losses to High Elves). TV of the competition - again varied races - this season is right around 1650, so inducements barely come into play.
So my thoughts and experiences...
It's rough. Offense is a joke and defense is decent but not good enough.
1) Defense: since this isn't a killer team, my team isn't really a threat to the opponent. Not to his players since I don't have killer skills, and not to the ball because - let's be fair - it's easy to keep your ball carrier safe from 3 Pestigors (even if one has +1AG). Scoring defensive TD's is nearly impossible: you don't have the threats on the BC and your opponent is in no hurry to score either since you're not able to put pressure on the ball or on the players. Even if the opponent loses control of the ball, you don't have the speed to capitalize and score. So at most you can hope to keep the 0.
Keeping the defense tight also leaves about zero room for anything adventurous, be it crowd surfing (which involves a lot of actions near the sidelines leaving the rest of the field thin), fouling (clumps your players for assists, again leaving gaps) or sending players forward to hunt the BC or get in a scoring position "just in case" (again this thins your defensive line, without posing an meaningful threat to the BC).
Also keep in mind this is online with Cyanide's game, so there is a hard cap of 4 minutes per turn. This time constraint is not the best friend of immaculate positioning.
So after 4 or 5 turns, the offense creates a gap, screens it off and runs in the TD. This leaves you with about 4 turns to score an equalizer. If you don't score that equalizer, you're looking at a draw as the best to hope for.
2) So that brings us to Offense: against agile teams, a deep kick (even against my KoR Pest) brings a serious threat. With say 4 or 5 turns to go, you really want to have your ball at the midline to start your cage, but with a deep kick that already involves handing off or passing. If that goes wrong, you can forget about the TD and probably will eat a defensive TD, singing your loss of the match.
Bash teams match your strength and out-Guard you in this stage of development, so muscleing through is really hard, and with only 4 Pests, you don't have much MV or AG to finesse with either. Your heavy pieces can't keep up with the MV6 Pests, leaving them to fend on their own on the final 2/3rd of the pitch. Your other option is to go slow but steady, but this results in a 1 square per turn offense, getting you nowhere in time.
Also, taking risks to get your offense flowing eats rerolls like candy bars.
Another factor of Stymie style is that the opponent still has a full team to play defense with. A Bash setup has games where opponents barely have a team left, so this allows them to actually score faster and even multiple times per half. A Stymie team does not generate that situation.
Sorry about sounding morose, but 1-2-8 W/D/L over the last 11 games isn't much reason for cheering. Smeborg admitted a dip in performance until 1800TV, but one can start wondering how to get there, since you're hardly scoring and you're not particularly causing an above average amount of CAS either.
tl;dr :
- You don't have a threat of making a defensive TD.
- Defense requires immaculate positioning. Which will fail eventually.
- Conceding a TD means you have to rush your own offense, with little chance of success.
The real problem is that effective stymie play requires a ton of Block/SF, and Nurgle don't have an effective mechanism to get to it. I've also noticed that six AV8 pieces is about two too many for stymie play: it works nicely for Dwarfs and Orcs, but largely because the soft guys can be protected. The tough guys on Nurgle are some of the toughest to be had, but it takes them forever to get enough Block/SF and Block/Guard to be optimal.
Worse, you don't have a two-skill delivery system. Khemri have the same problem, but other teams with ST4 non-MB Blockers all have some remedy to help them skill faster.
* BOBs have Throwers and lots of guys with Block.
* Lizardmen have 6 guys instead of 4.
* CWs are AG3.
* Ulfweres are MA6 and Yhetees have Claws.
* Flesh Golems only need 6 points.
Supposedly you compensate by having a better total package when you get there, and two premium avenues for after you have the combo. But it's a hard row to hoe, and even when you get to the "promised land" you're still vulnerable in mirror-matches!
I like stymie bash, but "sticky" is not enough: you have to be prickly as well. Orcs, it's easy. Load up on MB and Block, spattering Guard, SF/SS and toolbox skills until you've got 5-7 of each. Nurgle have to sacrifice a lot of that because they start 5 skills behind (Block x4, SH), have to build early without their best developers, and don't have as many potential killer/marker types (up to 3 Pests w/3 skills instead of up to 4 Blitzers with 2 skills). On top of that, with Orcs, there's a hierarchy of objectives: defensive TD, shutdown, quick score. Orc Throwers may not be great, but if you've got 2 turns and a numerical edge, you can make it happen. With Nurgle, a quick score isn't much better than getting ground-on, unless maybe it happens in the first two turns.
At peak, Nurgle is a little cooler, because Warriors are tough and the team has some nifty gimmicks. I guess. But Orcs have nifty gimmicks too, not quite as nifty, but they don't interfere with the Power Nine development....
Reason:''
What is Nuffle's view? Through a window, two-by-three. He peers through snake eyes.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and tackle zones: Reddened blades of grass.
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
Top love for a good thread.
