Where is the point in having cheerleaders and assist coaches

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:03 am

There's way too many experiments going on to have positive results on one thing

Game balance perhaps ok i agree, but one positive result, the coaches are having fun playing. I know thats not a popular view around here (only fun i hear several contributers here expounding on is mini's), considering all the posts i see about statistics and "but the rulebook doesnt say that exactly". Way too many threads filled with what the lrb book contains as rules, while poo pooing the fact that it even says that house rules are fine even encouraged. Pariah for the record, 10k for one possible roll on the ko chart going my way is not good value, imo.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sun Feb 02, 2003 12:24 pm

sean newboy wrote:
There's way too many experiments going on to have positive results on one thing
Game balance perhaps ok i agree, but one positive result, the coaches are having fun playing.

Thanks Sean .... yeah that been my take on the MBBL2 also. Some coaches love the format.

4 other leagues have started in the last year using the MBBL2 rule base. All that says to me is its a case of fun over numbers, and that's my type of BB.

Oh and we use a modified version of the card tables from BB Mag #2 for the cheerleader and asst. coach draws.

Galak

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Sun Feb 02, 2003 6:21 pm

Never said it didn't look fun. Just said that because one thing works in the MBBL2 doesn't convince me that it would work in the normal down to earth leagues.

tchatter · Post by **tchatter** » Sun Feb 02, 2003 6:31 pm

Just needed to chime in... you each have valid points.

1) Current LRB rules make Cheerleaders and Assistant Coaches, worthless...

2) I agree that if you are trying to balance 1 thing you can't have 10 other 'experiments' going on. I think the MBBL is alright in its balance of experiments, but the MBBL2 should just be a for fun league, not sure if it could be used to playtest balance for LRB with all its house rules. As far as I know it doesn't.

Yes there have been 4 new leagues created from the MBBL2 rules. BUT, there has also been the creation of the REBBL, REBBL Challenge League, TRUBBL, and another challenge league using the REBBL CL rules created as well. I would have to argue that these coaches are also having fun

Even though they play strictly within the LRB (with minor PBEM changes.)

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sun Feb 02, 2003 7:49 pm

tchatter wrote:1) Current LRB rules make Cheerleaders and Assistant Coaches, worthless...

Agreed.

tchatter wrote:but the MBBL2 should just be a for fun league, not sure if it could be used to playtest balance for LRB with all its house rules. As far as I know it doesn't.

Its a just for fun league never thought of it as more. And no it doesn't do any LRB testing. However, I think I've seen the league's rules for Asst. Coaches and Cheerleaders played out enough to use judgement that it would have a interesting but not unbalancing effect as a house rule in an LRB league. Just because there are other things happening doesn't preclude ability to develop informed opinions. Pariah disagrees that fine by me. We'll agree to disagree on the topic.

tchatter wrote:Yes there have been 4 new leagues created from the MBBL2 rules BUT, there has also been the creation of the REBBL, REBBL Challenge League, TRUBBL, and another challenge league using the REBBL CL rules created as well

Uh ... I wasn't trying to state it was a contest. I was merely trying to state that the MBBL2 is not an island. Several other leagues have formed using the ruleset. The fact that many leagues like the REBBL, FUMBBL, and TRUBBL using LRB has formed doesn't surprise me in the least ... the LRB rule set is solid. I expect many leagues to develop using the LRB set. However over a year ago, I'd never have thought that other leagues using the MBBL2 modifications would be formed. These leagues have been the surprise to me. The MBBL2 has a lot of "experiments", it surprised me to see the combination of experiments was popular enough to form other leagues. Does this means the MBBL2 is a great ruleset for other folks ... NO ... and I'm on record saying this many many times. However, its become a popular modification outside of basic LRB.

It like when the Modest Proposal (which some of you will remember) became popular for 3rd edition after BB Comp. #1 came out. A lot of leagues adopted it, so several folks agreed that for a larger slice of the pie than normal, the Modest Proposal seems like a good layer on top of 3rd. That's all I tried to say tchatter. I LRB based leagues, in fact I pretty much run on of those also as you know. All I was trying to respond to was Pariah's statement of silly extra rules that aren't balanced. Four leagues use the MBBL2 mods for cheerleaders and asst. coaches without complaint and a lot of praise. So it was merely a defense of my position.

Galak

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 2:23 am

Worthless? See I don't get that.

There has been many a time that winning that Kick Off table has resulted in a shiney new re-roll in the last few turns of a play off game or a final.
This is why math can't put a value on it. A perfect example is when I won an OT victory in the Chaos Cup. I won due the fact that I won a cheering fans result and the resulting reroll allowed me to reroll the failed GFI TD. That win earned me 200K + the match winnings and a trophy reroll.
Seemed worth it to me.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 3:30 am

Whenever we talk about math in Blood Bowl, remember it's always probabilities. This means it holds true for many games, but not necessarily for a single game. The maths predict (and you can trust their prediction, as even the accuracy of the prediction can in fact be calculated and stated) that in the long run, the assistant coaches and cheerleaders will work against you more often than they'll work for you.

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 7:01 am

I was talking to Galak, Zombie. Our discussion is over.
You just want to argue. I don't.

The point I'm making TO GALAK is that maybe I value winning more than a few points of TR. At any rate our discussing this matter is pointless so please don't try to spark an argument with me again.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 9:13 am

Wow, you really are pissed! Take it easy, don't blow a vein...

For the brits who might get this the wrong way, in North America "pissed" is the equivalent of "pissed off", not "drunk".

Tackledummy · Post by **Tackledummy** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 9:14 am

Zombie, I bet you use your teabags twice before you throw them out too huh?

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 10:34 am

Pariah wrote:The point I'm making TO GALAK is that maybe I value winning more than a few points of TR.

Understood, and really that's your call to make. If you go into OT frequently, these extras become more important.

I understand Zombie's math also questioning whether it wasn't better to save up for the actual team reroll, but at the same time OT can create situations where these become more important.

In addition, I'll readily admit that the value of insuring that your opponent doesn't get the extra reroll may have a real gameplay value of more than the half reroll count that Zombie assigned it.

Bottom line for me is simply. I really do see both sides.

My LRB team doesn't buy coachs or cheerleaders; however I do allow retired players to become Asst. coaches since they are free and Zombie's math falls apart a bit when the trade off is 1 TR vs the chance at the reroll (ie when you don't pay for the chance). So I take the free coaches.

In the MBBL2, I usually try to purchase 6 of each. The possible benefits to having them makes it worthwhile to sink 12 TR into them.

Galak

Heiper · Post by **Heiper** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 11:03 am

I'm more on Zombies "side" on this one. Ass. Coaches and Cheerleaders are what I would call expensive "maybe" Re-Rolls. To me, using that money to buy real RR is far better. And as I see it, the rule where you get a free Ass. Coach when you fire a player seems more fluff than anything called tactic. Those that use it must have very, very good reasons to think it is worth it, and tbh, I havn't seen anything on these pages that can support it well enough for me to even try it. Getting it free is getting +1TR for free, would rather sac player, buy ass. coach than get it free all because of the TR. I just can't see the worth of upping TR for a "maybe" RR, but thats my opinion.

ZanzerTem · Post by **ZanzerTem** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 2:19 pm

I have to "agree" with zombie. Current LRB rules for coaches and cheerleaders make them *almost* worthless. Just buy a reroll instead of them, and you are GUARANTEED to have that reroll EVERY HALF, as opposed to the off chance that you may roll a brilliant coaching and the off chance after that, that you may actually win that reroll.

It would be nice to see some generic rules for coaches/cheerleaders. Such as, as the beginning of the game, roll D6 for every 2 cheerleaders you have. On a six, you get +2 Fan Factor for thsi game only, and can add that 2D6 to the gate (the crowd is extra excited to see the skimpy girls in tights). For coaches, roll D6 for every 2 coaches you have. For each 6 you roll, you may choose a player to have the Pro skill for this game only (to reflect his extra training). These have the exact same effect for each race, and are simple rules to use. And, the best benefit, it actually makes buying them semi worth it!

Blood

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 3:26 pm

Tackledummy wrote:Zombie, I bet you use your teabags twice before you throw them out too huh? :lol:

Sorry, i didn't get your meaning here. Care to explain? Must be some expression i've never heard before.

Thefurmonger · Post by **Thefurmonger** » Mon Feb 03, 2003 5:02 pm

Well Guys I felt I had to throw my 2cents in here.
All things consitered most of the coaches in my leauge DO NOT see any reason under the current ruls to use ass coaches of cheers. I don't happen to agree. To my way of thinking it is more important to not to let your opponent have the kickoff re-roll than having another yourself.
To tell the truth I can never find a use for more than 6 or 7 a half.
And on a less rule heavy note I think I take ass coaches and cheers beacuse a team OUGHT to have some. In my mind whan the Rubensla Frogs take the field they do so to the mad cheering of their troup of Cheerleaders, and past the band (Yes I do have mins for it, And yes they do have a tuba). To me it just feels right.
Now I can understand that in Zombie's leauge where they don't use mins for coaching staff they might miss the point. If they do than they have my pity, they are missing a large part of the game.
In closing, if you want to play math games, go for it.
But around here we play Bloodbowl.