next big soapbox rant: picking up/catching/handoff issues

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:35 pm

Did we go through all of this a couple of months ago? (see this thread)

IIRC the majority were against forced catches.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:59 pm

Zombie: I don't know about american football, but in canadian football, when the ball is kicked all the way through your end zone, it's always better to let it go out, giving one point to the other team but assuring you a great field position to start from. Also, i'm not sure about this, but i believe that linemen in canadian football are not allowed to catch the ball (it's a rule of the game).

American football does not have anything similar to your rule of gaining points by kicking the ball through the end zone. Offensive linemen are not eligible recievers, and can be penalized for being downfield on a pass play or attempting to catch a ball.

Milo · Post by **Milo** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:09 pm

Keep in mind, everyone, that Blood Bowl *is* based on American Football. Nuffle is a misinterpretation of the NFL, and always has been. While it's fair to say that the game has changed over the intervening 500 years, there's still no other game that BB is more based on. I think it's fair to use real life examples from American football for background. Does anyone disagree with this?

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:28 pm

Yer I do, while i like the both they play different no matter if its based on it or not. I think too much is made thinking of realism over game mechanics, like the throwing range mods for fumbles. There are quite a few differences compared to american football if you pick it apart. I think it more closely resembles ultimate frisbee, but you have a ball instead of a frisbee and you can move with it and hit people.

As I see it blood bowl is blood bowl not a simulation for something else and rules should benefit the game, not to tie into a representation of sometihng else.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:42 pm

Milo: I think that forced catches don't make a lot of sense, as many times the blitzing player who knocks the ball loose does not want to have possession of the ball. Blood Bowl is based on NFL football, but it does not play at all the same way. Jerry Jones may look like the Crypt Keeper now, but he's not giving his players the power to reanimate, you know? A lot of the well intentioned arguments to make the game more realistic can be bad for the game.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:52 pm

Milo wrote:I think it's fair to use real life examples from American football for background. Does anyone disagree with this?

For the background, not a problem.
For a general concept of the rules, not a problem
For the details of the rules, it can be a problem (and in this case is).

Bob-the-Fish · Post by **Bob-the-Fish** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 5:38 pm

I don't like forced catches. Don't like em one bit. All the people I play with don't like em either, so we don't play that way. We also are more inclined to use the older versions of the rules when hand-offs were not actions and therefor could be used at any time by anyone. Recently, we started using the rule that they can only be used at the end of a action, but that's as far as we went. We play for fun and don't go to tournements, so it's doesn't matter to use what is "officially" decided.

Now that that's out of the way, I'd like point out, as some people have, that Blood Bowl is not a realistic example of any sport we play in "real life." As far as I can tell, the rules are a cross between American Football and Rugby. I don't know a whole lot about American Football and even less about rugby, so I can't really argue with anyone about rules or how players think when they play the game. I have played hockey most of my life though, so I can relate to what a player feels in the heat of the moment.

It seems to me that the object of all sports is to score points for your team and keep the other team from scoring points, because the team with the most points wins and winning is the object of the game. Since Blood Bowl is a turn-based representation of a sport, it seems logical that these two things would matter most to BB players. So, if a Wardancer leaps in, smacks down the opponents ball carrier and the ball bounces toward him, he would think "Now if I catch this ball, I'll be standing in the middle of most of the opposing team and they will react to this new development before I have a chance to get the ball to that catcher standing 2 feet from endzone." So, I would think that to aid his team in scoring, he would let it bounce away to where his team's 7 time all-star thrower can run over and pick it up.
Or maybe the other team has a catcher waiting as well and if he caught the ball and was blocked himself, the other team would be right there to pick it up and score.
Or maybe that 700 pound minotaur with the angry glint in his eye and smoke coming from his nose made him realize that having something that minotaur may want is not good for survival.

All I really wanted to get across with the (very) long rant was that it's not really useful to compare what players in BB would "want" to do something to other sports. Just like it's not really relavent to compare other sports like football and hockey or baseball. The rules are different and so the players will react in different ways.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 5:58 pm

Milo wrote:Keep in mind, everyone, that Blood Bowl *is* based on American Football. Nuffle is a misinterpretation of the NFL, and always has been. While it's fair to say that the game has changed over the intervening 500 years, there's still no other game that BB is more based on. I think it's fair to use real life examples from American football for background. Does anyone disagree with this?

Yeah, I disagree. Although the background fluff is very much a NFL parody, the game plays nothing like it, and is in fact much closer to Rugby Union, Aussie Rules or Gaelic football.
American football is run play-by-play, at which point the players reset, players come in and out, defensive formations change depending on the situation. Blood Bowl is not played as a series of downs, it's a continuous game without stoppages, and therefore it's fundamently different.
I think it's a mistake to say that (in gameplay terms) BB is based on any one modern sport over another. It's fantasy football!!!

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 6:31 pm

ianwilliams wrote:
Milo wrote:I think it's fair to use real life examples from American football for background. Does anyone disagree with this?
For the background, not a problem.
For a general concept of the rules, not a problem
For the details of the rules, it can be a problem (and in this case is).

agree 100% It can't be a sole or even primary basis for a rule change, especially a bad one like this.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:40 pm

Fluff-wise, yes, BB is American Football, but rule wise, no.

The only BB I've seen rule based on Amer Football is the old 2nd ed. NAF rules, and as we don't play that in LRB ed. I'd say it wasn't very sucessful.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 8:22 pm

back to the topic tho...I really still haven't seen any convincing reason why this rule change was made or why it is a good thing. screwing everyone evenly is not a valid reason, nor is "cause it's like real football more that way"

ZanzerTem · Post by **ZanzerTem** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 9:13 pm

Forced catches are *not* realistic. Think like a Dwarf, everyone. The ball bounced off that wussy Elf reciever, and is coming right at you. Do you reach up with your stubby little hands and make a grab for it, or do you kick the Elf in the groin and worry about the ball later?

Poor little Elf, it will heal

The Dwarf would let the ball bounce off his helmet and make the Elf pay for trying to score on "his" turf.

Not all BB players care at all about the ball. Quote from the LRB:

Dwarfs teams work to the principle that if they can take out all the other team's potential scorers, and wear down the rest, then there won't be anybody left to stop them scoring the winning touchdowns!

Forcing them to take the ball defeats their purpose of being on the field!

Blood