B-r-e-t-t-o-n-i-a-n-s, really why not?

[Darkson]

Funny how Podfrey hasn't moaned about the filter - guess he's not so up himself...

[artjones123]

Actually you are incorrect. They were an official 1st ed team. They were introduced in White Dwarf magazine ... the same way that the Skaven team was introduced to 1st edtion.

Skaven were officially added in White Dwarf #86
The Judges and Fatties team were officially added in White Dwarf #88

Come on Galak… I know who you are (and what i owe you as a BB fan ), but Judges and Fatties were published in the issue of April 1987. And there were several references about April fools on the editorial. Judges and Fatties' paper is funny but it's just pure nonsense. Don't you agree with this?
For me, this paper is clearly an April fool. Back on this time, WD wasn't so serious. It's the first time I meet someone who says that this two teams are official for the 1st ed. Did you really use them on your leagues back on this time?

[plasmoid]

Hi Spubbbba,

Actually in 4 years you've gained about 2%.

Ah - you missed my point then.
This poll is set up to allow multiple options for those against Bretonnians in any shape or form.
Assuming that the average anti-Bret voter picked 1,5 options (IMO a fairly conservative estimate - we know Darkson picked 3), then there are currently 53 pro and 47 against.

That's my point!
Those dead set against Brets in BB have for a long time claimed to be the huge majority. Maybe it isn't so.

Darkson said:

Funny how "Bum Monkey" hasn't moaned about the filter - guess he's not so up himself...

Or maybe "Bum Monkey" didn't want to take the bait that "Sad Mod" had laid out...

Cheers
Martin

[GalakStarscraper]

Actually you are incorrect. They were an official 1st ed team. They were introduced in White Dwarf magazine ... the same way that the Skaven team was introduced to 1st edtion.

Skaven were officially added in White Dwarf #86
The Judges and Fatties team were officially added in White Dwarf #88

Come on Galak… I know who you are (and what i owe you as a BB fan ), but Judges and Fatties were published in the issue of April 1987. And there were several references about April fools on the editorial. Judges and Fatties' paper is funny but it's just pure nonsense. Don't you agree with this?
For me, this paper is clearly an April fool. Back on this time, WD wasn't so serious. It's the first time I meet someone who says that this two teams are official for the 1st ed. Did you really use them on your leagues back on this time?

While it might have been meant as an April Fool's ... it is written with serious tone. That said ... actually the MBBL2 did once upon a time have rules for converting the players on those teams into star players ... so yeah ... once upon a time I did take them pseudo serious.

And if the Albion team from 1st edition came back with a skill like "We're Not Worthy" for a Brettonian team... then that would be interesting and very different.

Tom

[artjones123]

I really like your version of the “Forelock Syndrome” for Albion wanderers. I think I will use “Not worthy” and “Greater glory” with Plasmoid roster. Bretalbion must stay a joke team IMO.

@Plasmoid: Maybe one of the problem with your roster is that its too serious. Your team is well balanced and I like the fact that many players start with fend and wrestle. But it may be better with some crazy skill. You say that you don’t want to use “weird stuff”. Why such a choice?

If you look at the poll, the main problem that people see with Bretonnian today is that "it would be too close to a pre-existing roster". With new skills you can create a team that will be more different and persuade more people that we desperatly need a Bretonnian team.

[plasmoid]

Hi Tom,
just so we're clear: Are you saying that an Albion/Bretonnian team would fit into the BB world just as well/poorly as a Fatties team or a Judges Team?

I'd be more than a little surprised, as the LRB6 you wrote mentions The Old World, Lustria, Middenheim, Reikland and The Albion Wanderers themselves - but not Mega City One or Dredds Darlings.

That said ... actually the MBBL2 did once upon a time have rules for converting the players on those teams into star players ... so yeah ... once upon a time I did take them pseudo serious.

Leaving aside the pseudo here, would you say that MBBL2 had an absolutely unique approach to available teams, or is it just a run-of-the-mill league in that respect?

And if the Albion team from 1st edition came back with a skill like "We're Not Worthy" for a (Human) team... then that would be interesting and very different.

I'd consider it rather a cludgey and desperate mechanic. But it certainly would be different.
You're not the one saying it the clearest, but I'm very surprised to see statements that ('my') Bretonnians play too much like another (i.e. the Human) team. In my experience they play very differently. I have a really hard time seeing how anyone could come to that conclusion - even if the statement was just based on looking at the rosters.

Artjones said:

You say that you don’t want to use “weird stuff”. Why such a choice?

Because it would throw all the playtesting out the window. Because in literally years of discussion - "no wierd stuff" was a rather constant demand. And because I personally think it is poor design to resort to mechanics that break the basics of the game to make the roster 'unique'.

But as we're obviously discussing house rules, anyone could combine the two if they wanted.

Cheers
Martin

[GalakStarscraper]

Okay just for the exact record on this.

1) I allowed the Brettonians in the MBBL as a thank you to you and I have no issues with them in the MBBL at all. I think you have an interesting roster and since the MBBL is your league now ... I definitely understand why they are still part of the league. So to be clear ... I have zero issue with your roster as a house ruled team. Zero ... I guess I need to repeat that ... zero.

2) I'm pretty happy with BB having 24 teams ... I don't see the need for a 25th. Personally I'd STILL like to delete the Khemri team and make it 23.

So in summary ... don't want to be part of this conversation. I have no issues with your roster and think it makes a good roster for a house rule add on to a league that want them. However ... I'm not in favour of adding more teams to the game at this time (if such a thing was even possible) and I DEFINITELY am not in favour of the NAF adding a Brettonian team to the official list ... but that is nothing against your Bretonnian roster plasmoid ... I'd say the same thing for any new team someone was trying to add.

Tom

[plasmoid]

Hi Tom,
I know you don't want them in - and that's all good.
I was just curious whether you thought they were as a bad a fit as Mega City One judges and fatties.

Oh - and there are other teams I'd delete before khemri, but that's a discussion for a different thread
Good luck with the Gardens,
Cheers
Martin

[Tourach]

I have the opinion that as long as new teams are either well balanced or under pair, i have no problem with even more teams. Finding a well balanced roster with a nice backround that makes sense isn't easy though. I do actually think that the 3 new rosters (slann, chaos pact, and underworld) all make a nice addition to bloodbowl. So would bretonnians (especially plasmoids roster ofc. )

Been playing BB since i was 9 and I really love what bloodbowl has become (if we look beside how GW is behaving atm) where the community test and "patches" all new rules and ideas. It seems like most coaches in here (tff) doesn't have any problems with the actual statline or game design of the bretonnian team, more so the fluffpart of the team. As a competative player i guess this does not interest me as much, but i do think fluffwise that the bretonnians do fit into bloodbowl. I did play bretonnians in WHFB so i guess i might be bias.

Plasmoids team isn't thoroughly tested for turnament play, and this would be the only thing I could find against it. I would like to try it out though!

[Warpstone]

was going to post something profound about the poll telling the real story with op posting 1 option for them and 4 for not but i'll not bother the ammount of sense of humor failures around here and people going over all the old ground yet again is getting boring .



no wonder few of the old guard remain on this forum

That's a bit cynical. TFF shouldn't be a gerontocracy.

It's why the admin abuse is so annoying to anybody who's not in the old guard club.

[Thadrin]

Gerontracy?
I actually had to look that up.

I'm still of the opinion that anyone who wants to play Brettonians should suck it up and use the Human Roster, or - if they wish - the Orc Roster (Knight Blockers, Man-at-arms Blitzers, Squire Linemen, Archer Throwers, ignore the Goblins and Troll, unless there's a suitable Brettonian beastie in fluff. Possibly the now rather old Albion Fen Beast. If you can't get the model then Wyrd have something similar in their Neverborn range.)

If you want to House rule Martin's roster I'm fine with that - your league, your rules. If someone really really wanted to use it in a league I ran I'd probably let them TBH.

Seeing as the team will NEVER stand a chance of being any more official than that, is there really any more to be said on the topic (until the next time it inevitably pops up like a case of Herpes)?

[burgun824]

Seeing as the team will NEVER stand a chance of being any more official than that, is there really any more to be said on the topic (until the next time it inevitably pops up like a case of Herpes)?

+1 to everything Thadrin said...especially

[plasmoid]

Right. Voting has settled down.
DoubleSkulls pulled the numbers for me - thanks Ian

There were 101 voters - 136 votes.
60 voted for a well designed Bretonnian team.
41 voted against (giving 1.85 reasons on average)

Not that it'll change anything. Except... Perhaps the constant claim about a "vocal minority" will stop


[Edit - *yawn* - no-one posted to this for more than 2 weeks - was it really necessary to drag it up again? - Darkson]

[legowarrior]

I'm a fan of Plasmoids team, which you can tell, since my particular creation is strongly influenced by his. I would suggest more then 3 positions though, since you have Men at Arms, Yeomen, Squires and Knights, you could easily have linesmen, runners, and a combination blocker/other and a strong blocker. You could divide Brettonias into High Born (Squires and Knights) and Low born (Men at Arms and Yeomen). If you want to be thematic High Borns might get Animosity and Dauntless, while Low Born get fend.

[plasmoid]

@Darkson:
Why don't you just back off?
The voting had to settle before doing a non-automated tally made any sense.
I posted within a day or 2 of recieving the numbers from Doubleskulls.