next big soapbox rant: picking up/catching/handoff issues

[wesleytj]

Just when you thought you had heard all my complaints I have another one (I'll probably NEVER be done)

This one is on a seemingly minor point, but it has big implications on game play in a lot of cases. It involves some things the LRB has changed, and I never really knew why they did it.

Here they are:

- You MUST try to catch a bouncing ball. Why is that? Never had to before! It can cause really lame strategy problems, especially combined with some of the other things in this post. Or great, now the ball went to the guy who's in 5 tackle zones, but already moved to help cut off assists or whatever.

- Handing off is a seperate move action. That means a blitzer can't hit someone, pick up the ball, and hand it off...he's stuck with it. This is ESPECIALLY LAME since the player has many times hit a ball carrier, and now when it scatters to him he HAS to catch it! What a way to reward smart play. It was a lot more fun to see nice plays where the defensive team quickly and mercilessly makes the opponent pay for having a hole in his protection with a quick score of their own.

Either of these things by themselves aren't the end of the world, but together they can really screw up a player's strategy and there's NOTHING they can do about it. I've seen several times where I or my opponent (or just watching a game) where someone has gotten raped by this...they did nothing wrong but just got screwed by a bounce that they had to catch, then couldn't hand the ball off to someone who hadn't moved yet.

Can I get, first of all, an official (or semi-official) reason why these changes were made, and second of all, people's opinions on them? To me it's just a silly rule that screws people, but I suppose perhaps I'm missing something.

[Ghost of Pariah]

I like the changes. It adds more thought to the game.

[Grumbledook]

The hand off as a seperate action improved the game balence and its welcome afaiac.

There has been a thread before on forced catches (forced pick ups are ok) Not a lot of people like the forced catches though, I am inclined to agree with you.

If forced catches is removed then you won't see the problem with him getting the ball after blitzing the ball carrier. Anyway how much do you think one player can do in a single turn ;] Run, hit, catch and hand off, be nice if he shares some of the work.

[wesleytj]

I like the changes. It adds more thought to the game.

How? Should I not hit the ballcarrier because the ball might bounce back to me when he falls down? Should I not send a guy up there to assist the hit because it might bounce back to him? All it does is screw players randomly. I don't see any extra "thought" involved.

[wesleytj]

The hand off as a seperate action improved the game balence and its welcome afaiac.

That's fine, really...if you want to leave that but if that's how it is you have GOT to take away forced catches.

There has been a thread before on forced catches (forced pick ups are ok) Not a lot of people like the forced catches though, I am inclined to agree with you.

Sure, forced pickups are not an issue...if the ball is in a square and you knowingly walk into it, then you know what you have to do. Forced catches are something TOTALLY different.

If forced catches is removed then you won't see the problem with him getting the ball after blitzing the ball carrier. Anyway how much do you think one player can do in a single turn ;] Run, hit, catch and hand off, be nice if he shares some of the work.

Hey even with what I'm proposing, lrb blood bowl is still toned way down from the way I used to play...particularly with my wardancers. Leap in , blitz, get ball, leap out, hand off to thrower, who throws to catcher, who scores. that's what BB is all about!

[Deathwing]

Forced catches are a bugbear of mine...I've ranted at length on the subject. Dunno if the search engine is working OK but I won't repeat it all again.

[BoB]

We dont play forced catches, but players rarely miss the chance to catch it.
We still play handoff as effectively free action, guess it makes more sense to us that way. to be honest i dont even see why a handoff should require an agility roll, i like it as just a 2+. That way even low agility teams can pull off running plays. It also helps teams advance slow low AG players if they are willing to spend time scoring rather than hitting ppl with them.

What do you think?

[Zombie]

You MUST try to catch a bouncing ball. Why is that? Never had to before! It can cause really lame strategy problems, especially combined with some of the other things in this post. Or great, now the ball went to the guy who's in 5 tackle zones, but already moved to help cut off assists or whatever.

This simplifies the game and speeds it up. I like this change.

Handing off is a seperate move action. That means a blitzer can't hit someone, pick up the ball, and hand it off...he's stuck with it. This is ESPECIALLY LAME since the player has many times hit a ball carrier, and now when it scatters to him he HAS to catch it! What a way to reward smart play. It was a lot more fun to see nice plays where the defensive team quickly and mercilessly makes the opponent pay for having a hole in his protection with a quick score of their own.

This one was absolutely necessary. It used to be that elves were almost impossible to stop from scoring. The old play of pick up, move back, position catchers, and second turn, move, pass, move, move, hand off, move, score, was impossible to stop unless the coach messed up with his dice, which was pretty rare (just a couple of 2+ rolls). Now elves have to think a little bit to score, and that's a great thing for the game. This i find to be one of the best changes of all of the new rules.

These two changes taken together, and coupled with the change to leap (use once only now), also bring down the all-mighty power of the wardancer and the like, against which no cage could ever hold. They work against elves, and give a chance to bashing teams who can still surround their own ball carrier for extra protection wherever he happens to be. With all the changes that helped elves, these were really necessary. Plus, wardancers were too good before, now they're good but not unstoppable.

I love both these changes.

[Mestari]

The change to hand-off was necessary. Elves were just too good with it. But I have to admit that getting stuck with the ball sucks.

Solution:

Allow players to drop the ball without causing a TO if they want to:

The ball bounces one square from the player who drops it. They have to do this as a part of their action, but it can be done as a part of any action. Dropping the ball this way does not cause a TO.
Happy now?

[Grumbledook]

That doesn't solve the problem of blitzing the ball carrier and it scatters to your team mate you moved in to get an assist and he then passes the forced catch roll.

Just removing forced catches would be the most simple solution. Think zombie said it speeds the game up. In some situations sure but others it makes it longer. If you attempt the catch fail you have to roll for scatter again anyway but if you didn't want that player to catch it you can skip that roll. Its only in certain circumstances you wouldn't want to try and catch anyway.

Anyway like deathwing said this was discussed ages ago ;]

[Thadrin]

Hey even with what I'm proposing, lrb blood bowl is still toned way down from the way I used to play...particularly with my wardancers. Leap in , blitz, get ball, leap out, hand off to thrower, who throws to catcher, who scores. that's what BB is all about!

I rather think thats the whole point isn't it?
Wardancers are too damned good as it is - especially with MY personal Bugbear of tackle zones having no effect on a leaper whatsoever.
No. New Hand off being an action thing is good, even if I do wish you could use the action to handoff to one of your own players midway through their movement. (not that I'm saying that should be a change...I like that rule just as it is.)
You can't leap more than once per movement now anyway unless I've missed something.

Forced catches though? with you 100%.

[Zergo]

THe "forced catch" rule seems to make a lot of sense to me. If you've ever played American Football, and I imagine that Rugby is very similar, you'll know that one doesn't let a loose ball go. On a kickoff, or when there is a loose ball, every player makes a grab for it if it happens across his field of view. Sure, an offensive lineman isn't going to make too many touchdown runs, but he's not going to watch the other team recover the ball, either!

Re: the handoff discussion, I don't see a problem there, either. Handing off the ball is not a gimme. The more agile the people involved, the more likely it is to be successful. Just watch my favorite team, teh Detroit Lions, to see how easy it is to fumble a handoff.

Pre-flames, I know that American Football is not the same thing as Bloodbowl. Still, though, I think that the comparisons in these two cases are pretty accurate.

-Zergo

[Grumbledook]

Its the old adage of game mechanics over realism again

[Marcus]

New handoff rules make the game harder but I like them. I'd say it's just cos you're a woodelf coach TJ but that would be cheap

Force catch rules I hate and we rule against them in the ECBBL - there has been some strong support for removing this rule.

Rants have been made at length in the past - I refer you to my previous....

[Zergo]

Grumbledook-

I'm not saying that Bloodbowl should mimic the real world; it's obviously not a relfection of reality, what with the goblins, mummies and whatnots that inhabit the game. What I am saying is that certain things make sense. BB isn't chess, it's not a complete abstraction of war. It's a portrayal of a game, and as such IMO those two rules seem right on.

From a purely strategic point of view, one might not want to have certain players attempt a catch, fair enough. But if the models represent actual beings and not just pieces on a board, it makes sense that anyone would try to grab a bouncing ball. If one ignores the ball entirely, isn't that just a different form of Warhammer or Mordheim?

-Zergo