Does anyone have this mini ... ???

[Virral]

My understanding is that from a purely legal stand point he has no more right to sell the Zug mini's than anyone else who cares to make a mold and start producing copies. I have no idea about the Mummy Green, I guess it depends if the person who sold it to him owned the legal rights to reproduce it, or if it's just some GW employee who put it in his pocket one day and walked off whistling. Thanks to the history of these miniatures it seems to be a bit of a legal black hole.

The key difference I believe is that he owns a Master copy of Zug, which is what people use to make production molds from. So they're being made like any other miniature on the market from the most detailed mold possible. A miniature from the production mold will have less detail than the Master, so a mold made from a production mini will have even less detail. In other words the copies he is making are likely to be of a higher quality than copies made from a recast of one of his miniatures.

But if someone did decide to start recasting them, I don't think he'd have any legal or ethical basis to complain, since at the end of the day he's effectively recasting himself. I have no idea how dramatic the loss in quality would be, but given there are plenty of operating re-casters out there and you can't always spot the recast mini's it must be theoretically possible to produce a reasonable quality copy from a production mini.

[valentsigma]

Ok, I know what master copies are, and I know that when you want to be a sculptor for GW, or when GW wants to release a new figure, they ask for a comission job. They ask you (or their sculptors) to do a mini. All these unreleased minis are the discarded options for a mini after choosing one.

And when you do this, you accept that everything sent to GW becomes GW's IP, and there has always been problems about proving that an unreleased is figure is so (and not something never sent to GW) and the rights of selling the few copies GW made and distributed to friends, employees or whatever.

Anyway, these figure are private properties and gifts and can be sold as current figures are sold second-hand, but, THIS GUY SAYS OPENLY THAT HE'S RECASTING THIS FIGURE, not selling 3-4 original copies he was giveng by someone from GW.

I can't make a mold out of Archaon and sell copies. Well, I can, but they are copies, and if I do it through eBay I could have a lot of problems, first, because fakes, forgeries and copies are not allowed to be sold through eBay, and second, because if I don't say they're copies (at least he says they are) I would be selling fakes.

I must say that I love the figure and I want one, but I'll never pay that price for a copy, maybe for the original (whis is very rare and ORIGINAL), but no the for a copy. To me it's like if he were selling a very well fotocopied comic-book.

My point is that I've seen a lot of people be banned from eBay, some because they were selling copies as originals and others because they were recasting OOP figures. Where's the difference now? Why can't we do the same?

[Brage97]

I love that when we tried to approach him about a bulk order he said no because he didn't want to disrespect the eBay bidders, and then turned around and disrespected them anyway by putting up a Buy It Now price which is less than a third of what the original auction sold for. It looks like the next one went for under $100, so the law of diminishing returns for these eBay auctions is already kicking in.

Ok, I hope my wife isn't reading this, but I feel I should give the seller some support here:
I was the one who won the auction on the first Zug (at 187USD)

In the seller's defence: Right after the auction ended, the seller sent me a nice email where he refunded around half the auction price. He also added a nice gift with the mini, that I really appreciated. I think this brought me very close to the new "Buy it Now"-price.

So, I have no hard feelings with him now "dumping" Zugs at 50USD per mini.
If the supply of Zugs suddenly stops fro whatever reason; I have this mini now, instead of trying to get it later. For me; that's a cheap insurance.



It's a great mini by the way; he's 46mm to the top of his raised helmet. Fits the team perfectly.
Very little mould lines on the cast.

Guess they will have to be painted up as the Reikland Reavers in blue and yellow one day, with the BB Star Player roster, names and all. (Now where do I get two kickers?)


(Some of you might wonder why I bought this mini at that price in the first place, knowing that there would be more of the coming later at much lower prices (My max bid was 200USD). There are many reasons:
- I knew the infamous collector Simonafrikaprince was in on the auction and bid 200 just for the heck of it. I "knew" he was going to pick it up at much higher than 200USD anyways. (Imagine my surprise
- I have wanted this mini, to complete the 5th ed human team, since I first saw it.
- I wanted to secure it in case anything happened to the auctions, the seller, the mould, the minis or anything.
- But mostly of course: because I had the money and I wanted it

[valentsigma]

- But mostly of course: because I had the money and I wanted it

Obviously that's the main one

If I had the money and I wouldn't care expending it in this, believe me when I say that I would, but I don't

[Virral]

Glad to hear he treated you right mate, that's very good news.

[txapo]

I think he's sold copies of the miniature to almost all the biders, as I know a guy in the spanish forum who bid and owns 4 of them (he's already traded one for a dark elf assesin of the 5th he couldn't find anywhere).

[GalakStarscraper]

I can't make a mold out of Archaon and sell copies. Well, I can, but they are copies, and if I do it through eBay I could have a lot of problems, first, because fakes, forgeries and copies are not allowed to be sold through eBay, and second, because if I don't say they're copies (at least he says they are) I would be selling fakes.

I think you answered your own question.

But in case you think you didn't ... here are the issues I see with casting Archaon

1) You'd be doing so from a production not a master copy of Archaon so you really would be re-casting as its definition.
2) Archaon was commercially sold by Games Workshop
3) Archaon was part of a range that Games Workshop actually support and doesn't treat like poo on their shoes

If any of the above 3 items were true for the Zug auction ... I'd be bothered by it a lot and definitely would not have bought one during the last auction.. But since all 3 of these are okay in his case ... I personally have no issues. Master Copy / Never Commercially Sold / Game Not Supported

[txapo]

If any of the above 3 items were true for the Zug auction ... I'd be bothered by it a lot and definitely would not have bought one during the last auction.. But since all 3 of these are okay in his case ... I personally have no issues. Maser Copy / Never Commercially Sold / Game Not Supported

This could change soon! with the cyanide launch,...

[GalakStarscraper]

My point is that I've seen a lot of people be banned from eBay, some because they were selling copies as originals and others because they were recasting OOP figures. Where's the difference now?

I'm probably repeating myself but since valent has a mini business I'm just making sure I point out. All those folks banned from Ebay were selling castings made from production copies of the figures and the OOP figure in question was commercially available at some point.

So you cannot by the definition of the word say that this seller is re-casting ... he's not. If he was than many commercially available figures on the market are recasts as it is common for a company to make a basic green and then master cast and then make modifications to the master to make differences and then sell it. This is standard method of creating figures at GW and no one would say that the figures in their store are re-cast.

NOW ... I'm not saying that anyone that gets their hands on a master copy of a figure is free to start casting from it ... NOT AT ALL. But its NOT a re-cast by definition.

In the case of the Khemri figure ... if you have the two current Khemri Mummies and hold them up to the screen ... my belief is that this is the base green for those two figures. GW probably mastered this figure ... made modifications to the masters and then production moulded them to create the two Mummies that they commercially sell. The base green which is still a great figure was never production moulded or commercially sold. That's my best guess from comparing the green to the 2 commercially sold Khemri Mummies.

Galak

[Virral]

It may not be a recast in the truest sense of the word, but you've got to admit it's still a little on the shady side. There is almost no chance whatsoever that whoever actually owns the rights to that sculpt is aware of all this or gave their blessing to this guy, be it GW or the original sculptor.

The fact that GW never turned it into a commercial model is a crime, and screw GW anyway, so I know why no one cares, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation...

[valentsigma]

Master Copy / Never Commercially Sold / Game Not Supported

Ok, this I understand and I get your point, and I repeat that I see it more clearly in the mummy case (I don't know why but I find more legal to cast something from a green bought to the sculptor than casting something from a already cast master...), but, if GW has the rights over the greens that would-be-sculptors and GW's sculptors create and submit....has GW any right over the masters?

And I don't find any difference between figures cast and commercially released and under GW rights, and figures submitted to GW, cast by GW and never sold as long as GW has the rights over them.

Oh, and Galak, in the end I couldn't start the mini bussines I told you about , a pity, I tried, and I must say that I admire you for what you've achieved with Impact

[nazgob]

In the seller's defence: Right after the auction ended, the seller sent me a nice email where he refunded around half the auction price. He also added a nice gift with the mini, that I really appreciated. I think this brought me very close to the new "Buy it Now"-price.

Not only that, but he offered a similar deal to a lot of people who bid.

I love that when we tried to approach him about a bulk order he said no because he didn't want to disrespect the eBay bidders, and then turned around and disrespected them anyway by putting up a Buy It Now price which is less than a third of what the original auction sold for. It looks like the next one went for under $100, so the law of diminishing returns for these eBay auctions is already kicking in.

I think that its actually fair to say that this ebayer is behaving in an equal way to all of his customers. I know that with what I spent on the mini, I didn't break the buy it now price (taking into account a shiny extra he threw in), and I would assume that Brage9 didn't either. For the record, my maximum bid was $100, and I defintely didn't pay that on the second chance offer he gave me.

The ebayer is well above board, and has behaved well and courteously with me at every step. He chose not to go down the route of a bulk order, but has instead opted to sell at a price at which the market will bear. I would be very happy to deal with him again.

[traveller]

The ebayer is well above board, and has behaved well and courteously with me at every step. He chose not to go down the route of a bulk order, but has instead opted to sell at a price at which the market will bear. I would be very happy to deal with him again.

I totaly agree with this !

Traveller

[Norse]

well, I did try to tell you all, didn't I..

[Darkson]

Mummy now on Buy It Now at $30: http://cgi.ebay.com/Blood-Bowl-Unreleas ... 500wt_1156

Zug now Buy It Now at $40: http://cgi.ebay.com/Blood-Bowl-Human-St ... 500wt_1156