I really hate f***king stalling

[ZanzerTem]

As far as I can tell the people that stall can't defend either. Which is why they are stalling. Seems like a weak defense for stalling.

I disagree. I don't care how good of a defense you have set up, if your opponent has the movement and rolls enough 6's there is nothing you can to do stop them.

Stalling and preventing an equalizing score from your opponent is a perfectly valid and useful tactic for most teams, albeit more for some than others.

[Joemanji]

Rather than that. Score and play the game. Mount a defense rather than assume that your opponent will score which is why you would have had to stall.

Nonsense. Balderdash. Poppycock.

Some teams, e.g. Woodies, Skaven, especially Pro Elves have a near guaranteed 2-turn score. There is no merit or value in allowing someone the chance to beat you for some utterly subjective notion of "fair play". A monkey could score a 2TTD with Pro Elves. Ooh ... I haven't rolled snake yes. Well done me.

[mattgslater]

I think this comes back around to tempo and clock management.

Strategically thinking (that is, my prescriptions are teleological rather than ethical), I think that if you are the bash team and you can score by turn 4 or so, you should do it. If your opponent is slow and you can safely stall until turn 5, you should do it. If your opponent is fast, and you can't score with one or two more turns than you need to score again, you should stall until T8, unless you received first this half and your opponent has a reliable 1TTD, which is pretty rare. There are also secret weapons and the like to consider. If my opponent didn't field a SW in the first half, and I've got him down men, I want to stall out so the SW only gets one turn of use. Stalling with a lead is generally unwise, as scoring is a more reliable way to preserve the win. Stalling from behind is also a poor strategy; the way to come back from a deficit is to score on O and D. Stalling from a tie is as good as your confidence in your ability to stall.

Some teams, e.g. Woodies, Skaven, especially Pro Elves have a near guaranteed 2-turn score. There is no merit or value in allowing someone the chance to beat you for some utterly subjective notion of "fair play". A monkey could score a 2TTD with Pro Elves. Ooh ... I haven't rolled snake yes. Well done me.

IME, this is a real concern, greatly exaggerated. It's pretty much impossible to stop a well-developed PE team from 2TTDing with some reliability, but if you can hold 'em out you can stop the score. Leap x2 is a threat, but it's only 4/9 to work, assuming no T7 TRR. And every once in awhile, you just get that game....

[Asperon Thorn]

Rather than that. Score and play the game. Mount a defense rather than assume that your opponent will score which is why you would have had to stall.

Nonsense. Balderdash. Poppycock.

Psh.

You know I have been saying the same thing for years, Naz. Fast or slow. If it takes more than one turn to score, then they can be stopped.

Asperon Thorn

[spubbbba]

Most of the crybabies who hate stalling are just no good at the game.

Why should I give you back the ball? It's your job to come and get it, I'll always score if it looks like the ball carrier is in real danger. I'm better at defence anyway so better to take the safe score.

But if you leave a huge gap in your line that allows most of my team to run though and camp on the goal line, then instead of complaining about bad sportsmanship do something about it. I've seen plenty of lost games saved due to the other coach not giving up or equally the winning coach going easy and somehow losing.

I used to dislike stalling but threw away too many games or got teams wrecked by scoring early and letting my opponent back in the game. Not only that they get a shot at bringing back any KO'd guys, reserves, surfed stunned players or regen'd guys and a free LOS to mash.

If you score when you can then the other team doesn't even have to try and defend, they can just protect their key players and target yours as they know you'll gift them the ball back to equalise/win.

[Joemanji]

Hoping your opponent rolls double 1 is almost the only way to stop a Pro Elf 2TTD. That isn't a tactic. However their incredibly reliable offence is balance by the team's fragility and weakness on defence. If I'm not "allowed" to stall by the morality police or whatever then how is that a reasonable trade?

Do Barcelona only play long balls against Bolton because to pass the ball properly would be unfair? No. In sports one team ruthlessly crushes the other given the opportunity, and when they get into a commanding position ease off and try to converse energy and minimise injuries. Just like in BB...

People have survived their parachute failing. So there must be a way to survive falling out of the sky. Doesn't mean I'm going to try it unless I have to ...

[mattgslater]

Hoping your opponent rolls double 1 is almost the only way to stop a Pro Elf 2TTD.

False. You can maintain the net; this is the soul of the Cult of Position. I've never seen a Pro Elf with Grab or Juggernaut. I've fantasized about having enough Guard to do that one day.... If the elves can't make a hole, Leap has to work three times on two players; one guy will get blitzed, the other will get tripled. At end of half, there are usually no TRRs.

But again, I agree on the general principle, even if I think you've overstated it.

[Joemanji]

Another point is ... what happens if I'm nice and don't stall?

Does my opponent play nice and stop trying to kill my players? No. Does he stop trying to score? No. Does he ease up in any way? No.

So what do I get for not stalling?

Nada.

[Joemanji]

Hoping your opponent rolls double 1 is almost the only way to stop a Pro Elf 2TTD.

False. You can maintain the net; this is the soul of the Cult of Position. I've never seen a Pro Elf with Grab or Juggernaut. I've fantasized about having enough Guard to do that one day.... If the elves can't make a hole, Leap has to work three times on two players; one guy will get blitzed, the other will get tripled. At end of half, there are usually no TRRs.

I'm thinking about real BB Matt, not imaginary unlimited-skill BB against chimps or toasters or whoever is in your league.

[mattgslater]

So what do I get for not stalling?

A TD, with or without a lead. Maybe a chance at another TD later.

The real question is: "How much do I trust my ability to stop you, or force you to score with enough time to answer? And how much do I trust my ability to stall?"

Funny, most of the teams that are the best at scoring quickly are also good at pressuring or recovering from strategic fails or wacky play.

Oh, and please stop insulting my coaches. They use this stuff against me too. My experience here goes both ways. Just because you don't know something doesn't mean it isn't true.

[Asperon Thorn]

Most of the crybabies who hate stalling are just no good at the game.

That's just ignorance right there.

I hate stalling because it isn't fun. Which is the general theme of just about all of my posts. I play the game to have good time, and I don't need to win to do it. But someone sitting on the goal line for 5 turns because of an unlucky turn of the dice, takes the fun out of the game.

Someone that uses this defense for stalling is not only has to use a dull tactic, but has to resort to calling their opponents crybabies and bad players. What league do you play in? Or are you another product of Cyanide and fummbl where you can anonymously hide behind an unfriendly game?

Asperon Thorn

[mattgslater]

@ Asperon: There's a significant "suck it up" aspect to BB. That's supposed to be part of the appeal of the game. On its face it seems to be un-fun, but it's common to sports and not so much to boardgames, so it's a real flavor-enhancer in my book.

Oh, and we had somebody once flip a table because his opponent was running up the score. I'd like to hear the third way to whop the other guy. Geez. Take it like a man/rat/orc/whatever.

[MeatLoafX]

One time I was playing dwarves against wood elves and I wasn't breaking many of them. I parked my cage downfield (5 players) because I wanted to score turn 8. So my opponent started fouling the crap out of me. He'd knock a guy down and surround him with players and foul since he had a large man advantage.

I've always thought that was a pretty smart thing to do and have remembered it.

[Asperon Thorn]

Matt,

I am very aware of the "suck it up" aspect. Since I am a player that fouls regularly, has "dirty player" listed as a "must have" skill, on multiple players. I typically target team's best players as if there was a bounty on their head and a CAS on him is almost more important than winning. . .

However these are all parts of "play" in which action is happening. . .not sitting on the ball.

Meatloaf, I once lost a game 3-0 to a team that stalled on me. At the end of that game, the other coach was forced to retire his team. (Admittedly some very lucky injury rolls helped out.) Ironically, my team advanced to the league play offs because of a now empty spot.

Asperon Thorn

[MeatLoafX]

I can understand the frustration, but if you lose 3-0, it can't be because of stalling.

With slow teams, I have problems stopping speedy teams. I've often said the only thing that can stop an elf team is the elves' natural enemy - the one reroll one. I've held off scoring before and have had it happen to me. I've pretty much accepted it's part of the game, but I know everyone who plays this game has something that they don't like about it. That's why it's not a perfect game. I've started developing all my teams with defense as the first priority and preventing teams from sitting on the ball. With Skaven, I developed leaping/wrestle/strip ball gutter runners. With other teams, I do different things - but now I'm playing Slann. And damn, it's fun to bust up cages.