So, if we all agree the Lizardmen are broken.....

[Skummy]

Steady pressure, and make them use rerolls. His team probably doesn't have more than 2 rerolls after 5 games. This isn't nearly enough with 3 AG and no sure hands. He's going to be burning rerolls becasue of the lack of block, and forcing his skinks to get out of danger will suck up more. A team plays in a significantly different manner when it is out of rerolls. If your players don't get too badly hurt in this game, you might be happy with the results.

[Grumbledook]

erm skinks have ag3 that means they need a 3+ not a 2+, so they fail on a 1 or 2 not just a 1.

[Khankill]

It looks as if the reroll rules you were using, and the math used to figure the dodge were broken. With those fixed, I hope you get a grip on those slippery little skinks and throttle them.

Happy lizard beating

[GalakStarscraper]

well that should help, thanks. But still a 1 in 12 chance is nothing to scauf at.

1 in 9

Fails first dodge on 1 or 2 = 33%
Fails dodge reroll on 1 or 2 = 33%

.33*.33=.11 ..... 1/.11 = 9 ... so its a 1 in 9 chance of failure ... trust me its going to happen. I play Halflings and I've watched Chet play Amazons ... that 1 in 9 happens a lot more than you'd like to think.

The problem that Skinks have vs Amazons is that when they fall down from that 1 in 9 dodge they have +1 to their injury roll which means they have a 24% chance (basically 1 in 4) of KO'ing themselves of worse when they fall.

So 3+ dodge rolls with only one reroll per a failed roll and see how the team does.

Galak

[neoliminal]

Ok,
1. The Skinks are always held off the line by the max amount of
movement his aposing team can move, hence you can't move
up and kill the skinks.

1. Wait for them to come to you.

2. With Stunty and dodge, they can blast through any line you try to
hold period.

2. Wait for them further back. Don't put everyone on the line. More corners and safties.

3. The saurus's (he takes 6 of course) simply destroy anything they
get neer, and with 6 movement you can not simply ignor them.
because if you do, he can move 8 to blitz/tie up anyone.

Avoid the Saurus. Put a few players in harms way and keep the rest back. If a Saurus get's through, gang up on it.

4. Deploying down field does not work either, see #3.

Then you're not doing it right. The exact tactic depends on your race, but you can find ways to tie up the Saurus without getting creamed. Elves can dodge one square off, dwarves can stand and take it... etc.

5. Trying to kill all the Skinks does not work, see #1.

Again, you need to wait for them to come to you. Chasing them around the field wont work. They have to come to your end of the pitch eventually... or they don't score.

6. Trying to out speed him does not work, he will break off a saurus
and with the skinks down field come and blitz you. (and for thouse
that think a Agility 1 is a problem, your kidding your self).

You could only out speed him with skaven.

So I ask again, what is a viable tactic to win against this fast and powerful team?

It depends on the race you are using against him. What race are you playing?

[Cervidal]

Everything Neo said above is quite true. Lizardmen are not a great team. They are a very good team, but no more than any other team in Blood Bowl.

They have very severe weaknesses and are unable to utilize some of their strengths very well because of the slow progression of Saurii and the limited progression of Skinks.

[Zombie]

The only time i played against them was with halflings and i beat them. If memory serves, they were later eliminated in the first round of playoffs. Their coach was good too, one of our best. He made it to the final in the next league with high elf against my amazons and was by far the favorite in his division to get there.

Bottom line is, i don't think they're broken. In my experience, they're a little bit on the weak side!

[Blackscale]

I play lizardmen myself and have found out that it is not that difficult for an opponent to stopt the sauri, because they cannot dodge anywhere. If you keep your distance, you opponent gets only one blitz, not enough to make a hole in a good defence. Also, strenght 4 without block still gives enough bad results and in my experience the few rerolls a lizardmen team can afford are better spend on picking up the ball then on hitting.
If you have trouble with dodging skinks, give one of your players tackle, or just play dwarves.

[Mestari]

I agree in most part with neo, except for the following:

You could only out speed him with skaven.

Surely you should've included wood elves in the list. At least I never had problems outspeeding lizardmen with wood elves. I've played two or three times against them with woodies, and certainly did not have any problems beating them.
Same with dwarves - the ST4 is a problem, but it's nothing that the slayers, lots of block and a few guards can't handle. In the long run, the sauri lose if they fight dwarves.

[Marcus]

I've coached a couple of Lizardman teams and I've played against them quite often. Now that Dauntless is a trait and Skinks can't get general skills they are quite well balanced.

They are a very interesting team in as much as they have no middle ground for strength. I think that's rather interesting design and it certainly makes a change from the old 6 3 3 8 statline....

Without trying to be cheeky, I've found that most of the trouble people have with lizardmen is that they are so used to how their tactics apply to ST3 teams that they simply don't have an answer to Lizardman style.

They are quite easily beatable. Start with what Neo's post for ideas. Orcs and Dwarves do a good number on Lizards. Tie up the Saurus, pound the Skinks. Skaven are quite good against them as they can use Gutter Runners as hunter-killers against skinks in the backfield; etc.

Best thing to do is play Lizardmen for a bit then find out how people stop you. If no-one can stop you then organise a PBEM game with someone on the board, I'm sure they'll give you a lesson

[martynq]

Our last league season the one Lizardman team was 3-3.

Wins against: Halfling and 2 Undead
Losses against: Amazon, Dwarf, and Human

Galak, was this MBBL or MBBL2?

My MBBL2 undead team lost a close match against a strong lizardman team last season. I didn't break enough skinks in the first half and was really struggling (2-0 down at halftime). In the second half, things went much better and I only lost because a ghoul failed a gfi roll to equalize at the end.

I reckon that if I'd had Tackle on a wight or two (several haven't got skills yet) then I'd have won.

Lizzies are good, but not that good. Hit the skinks with Tackle and they will go down. Without any ballcarriers, the lizzies will lose.

Martyn

[GalakStarscraper]

Our last league season the one Lizardman team was 3-3.

Wins against: Halfling and 2 Undead
Losses against: Amazon, Dwarf, and Human

Galak, was this MBBL or MBBL2?

That was MBBL.

The MBBL and MBBL2 have had 4 total Lizardmen teams:

MBBL:
Lustrian Avengers: 2 wins / 0 losses - TR 117 (still active)
http://www.midgardbb.com/MBBL/Season2/L ... engers.htm
Slitheren: 3 wins / 3 losses - (Retired)

MBBL2:
Slashers: 8 wins / 4 losses / 1 tie - TR 232 (still active)
http://www.midgardbb.com/MBBL2/Season3/Slashers.htm
Sin and Virtue: 5 wins / 2 losses - (Retired)

Galak

[plasmoid]

Hi Baldrock,
as you can see, "we" don't quite agree that the lizardman team is broken.
That being said, this is not the only time that the complaint has been raised, and IMO, the lizardmen team is among the teams that gets this comment the most.

IMO - they're very very good.
Not to say that a bad coach will rule with them, but they do make a good coach better, and a great coach very hard to deal with.

IMO, MA8 players with dodge (even with "only" AG3) are great running players that most players would love to have on their team.
Combine these with an _unprecedented_ 7 players with ST4+ and access to GEN+ST, that aren't even slow but have a very respectable MA of 6, and you've got yourself a whopper of a team.

Too good? Perhaps not.
But IMO very close.
Martin

[Snew]

I never thought I'd say this but they're not broken. They are hard to play against and, as it turns out, they're also very challenging to play. I wouldn't change them back to the way they were but I certainly wouldn't penalize them in any way more. Removing General skills from the skinks killed the team for me. Making them any worse would fully relegate them to joke team status.

[plasmoid]

Hi snotsngrots
>Removing General skills from the skinks killed the team for me.

And many others. IMO, this was what made them unique/interesting.
Check out my alternative lizardman roster in the "New Concepts" forum.

Martin