So, if we all agree the Lizardmen are broken.....

Baldrock · Post by **Baldrock** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:41 pm

Ok,
I am currently involved in a very small home league. As there is
only limited interest in Bloodbowl in my area, we where only able to drum
up four people to play. To help flesh the league out, we all decided to
field two teams.
Currently after playing 4-5 games per team, the Lizardman are in first
place with a "Suprise" undefeated standing. Only one person actually chose to field this broken team. The second team that this person fields is a human team with I believe a 2win 2loss record. So, as you can see it's not the player but the team that is wining.
This person belives that the Lizardman are in fact beatable, but as this is our 3rd league, with the lizardman going undefeated all three times I don't think I believe him. After a extensive search if the internet, that turned up no tactics that are usable at all (but sure let me know that
the lizardman won the recient GW turnoment). I am turning to you guys for some help:
Question: 1. What team can actually be used efectivally agenst
this "fast and powerful" team?
2. What are some viable tactics to use, that actually allow
that team to win against the lizardmen?
3. Should we just ban them from our leagues all together?

Harleqin · Post by **Harleqin** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:47 pm

I don't see them as broken. I just see them as an unusual team that might cause initial problems, but no be anything to worry about in the long run.
In our league they got absolutely crushed by undead in their last match and only barely made it to the playoffs. After the first half they were missing 6 players.

There are two players on the team. fast, agile and easy to hurt AND slow, strong and powerful.
The skinks can be taken out easily. With two dice and the blocker having block and/or tackle is very useful and their AV is so low that they are easy to take out. No skinks, no touchdowns.
The Sauruses are a bigger problem because there are so many of them, but herd them together and then divide and conquer. Take them out one at a time and eventually he will run out. Or you could just keep clear of them and reduce their blocking options.

It is all about the skill of the coaches. Not the team.

phil · Post by **phil** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:48 pm

i've beaten them with khemri by outslugging them and with wood elfs by out quicking them... that said, i always have and always will consider them broken and very, very poorly designed....

Khankill · Post by **Khankill** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:55 pm

Wow, I have never thought of them as broken. I can't remember losing a game to them; I have probably faced them 4 times. The key for me is simple, seek and destroy the skinks. The tackle skill is handy for this, they fall down a lot easier without that dodge skill helping. It's pretty comical watching a saurus try an pick up the ball. In the hands of a good player however I am sure they could be very scary; that can be said for most any team however.

Baldrock · Post by **Baldrock** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:56 pm

Ok,
1. The Skinks are always held off the line by the max amount of
movement his aposing team can move, hence you can't move
up and kill the skinks.
2. With Stunty and dodge, they can blast through any line you try to
hold period.
3. The saurus's (he takes 6 of course) simply destroy anything they
get neer, and with 6 movement you can not simply ignor them.
because if you do, he can move 8 to blitz/tie up anyone.
4. Deploying down field does not work either, see #3.
5. Trying to kill all the Skinks does not work, see #1.
6. Trying to out speed him does not work, he will break off a saurus
and with the skinks down field come and blitz you. (and for thouse
that think a Agility 1 is a problem, your kidding your self).

So I ask again, what is a viable tactic to win against this fast and powerful team?

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:59 pm

If he sets the skinks down field you can swarm the sauras, they are only st4 and without block. Tackle will devistate skinks and dodge and stunty don't guarentee anything, ive failed loads of dodges with them.

phil · Post by **phil** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 7:01 pm

and so to finish my post (i dunno why i hit submit)... the reason i consider lizards broken is because they hit on both of the issues i've always had with team design in this game, namely that speed and strength are under-valued in the "alleged formulas" that are used for team creation... i've always thought that players shouldn't be created as much individually as they are... if you're going to have formulas, whether you stick to them precisely or not, they need to take the whole team into account... and when it comes to strength and speed, those two things have more impact in numbers than any other factors in the game... a team with two str 4 players and a team with 6 str 4 players are in completely different situations in the game, as is the case with a team that can get 2 or 4 speed 8+ players and a team that can get 12 of them... these two attributes contribute more to the balance of the game than any other, and when you get more than 4 players with high values in those attributes on a team, the impact is greater than the sum of the parts... i've always thought that teams should be priced based not on the individual values of their abilities, but rather on the total number of players with certain values over certain levels... there should be additional costs per player is your team can have more than 4 players with a high base strength, same with speed, a lesser premium for high average armor, and agility should be penalized only when other factors aren't balanced as well, since it's the least important stat in the game's balance (yes it is!)...

for those reasons i think that lizards are worryingly underpriced. i'd like to see at the very minimum their players raised 10k each.... not that it'll ever happen, but hey...

Khankill · Post by **Khankill** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 7:03 pm

you have to try and create situations that require the saurus to dodge or blitz to do anything. My human lineman always seem to give my lizardman opponent fits. always leave 2 guys deep and try to rush 3. Pick a skink and neutralize him. The remaining 6 should be enough to confound the saures. yes those 6 will take a beating but so should those skinks and they break easier.

Baldrock · Post by **Baldrock** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 7:03 pm

Ok so let me get this straight:
1. I deploy most if not all of my team on the saurus's for a massed
crashem smashem slugfest.....gee why didn't I thin...Oh wait that
right because It does not work!

6 saurus's on the line, 5 skinks backfield
11 linemen/blitzers on saurus's =
5 KO'd or Dead Lineman/blitzers. 1 Lizardmen stunded (remember
that 9 armour class). AND A GIANT GAPPING HOLE FOR THE
SKINKS to run right through.

so it's 0-5 instead of 2-10...... /sigh

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 7:31 pm

Baldrock wrote:gee why didn't I thin...Oh wait that
right because It does not work!

Our last league season the one Lizardman team was 3-3.

Wins against: Halfling and 2 Undead
Losses against: Amazon, Dwarf, and Human

Since they were PBeM games, I could try to dig up the version software and the game logs for you to review to see how the 3 teams that beat him did it.

Galak

For that matter were it not for a failed GFI, my Halfling team would have beat him as well.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 7:34 pm

Lizards have given me problems, as well. With a young lizardman team, it is essential to place a tackle zone on each of their saurii and keep them from moving around too much. This can hurt if you don't have a high AV, but a Saurus does not start with block or mighty blow, so this should cost him some rerolls and tie his players up. Have the rest of your team do a controlled rush on the skinks and try to get them off the pitch.

Lizardmen really become irritating when they get Saurii with block and break tackle/guard. I may have to face one soon, and am not looking forward to it.

Baldrock · Post by **Baldrock** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 7:34 pm

Khankill wrote: you have to try and create situations that require the saurus to dodge or blitz to do anything. My human lineman always seem to give my lizardman opponent fits. always leave 2 guys deep and try to rush 3. Pick a skink and neutralize him. The remaining 6 should be enough to confound the saures. yes those 6 will take a beating but so should those skinks and they break easier.

neutralize a skink.... Ok, well how exactly do you do that? They are stunty, and have dodge, so if he has any rerolls left it goes like this
1. Dodge out, anything but a 1.
2. If that fails reroll with dodge skill
3. If that fails use reroll.
this means that a skink has only a 1 in 18 chance of failing to get out of
a tackle zone.... so uh, how exactly do you neutralize a skink.

phil · Post by **phil** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 7:41 pm

you can't reroll a failed dodge after using hte dodge skill... you can only reroll a failure once, the dodge skill _or_ the team reroll, but not both... maybe if you take the accurate version of the reroll rule back to your league, you'll at least have a bit of an easier go with them...

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 7:42 pm

Baldrock, there were a few things wrong with the above statement. A skink fails a dodge on a 1 or a 2 unless he's got 4 agility. A player cannot reroll anything twice, meaning that if you fail a dodge and use your dodge skill, you cannot reroll this - it's a turnover. If you put a player with Tackle on a Skink, he will fail the dodge 33% of the time, and your opponent will have to use a reroll for another 66% chance of success.

Baldrock · Post by **Baldrock** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 7:43 pm

well that should help, thanks. But still a 1 in 12 chance is nothing to scauf at.

Talk Fantasy Football

So, if we all agree the Lizardmen are broken.....

So, if we all agree the Lizardmen are broken.....

That doesn't really help with tactics

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Re: ....