Why rule of 1 and 6 for FF is lame

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 12:31 am

The rule of 1 and 6 for FF rewards losing teams and punishes winning teams. What I mean by that is this:

The only time the 1 makes your fan factor go down when it wouldn't otherwise, is when you've won the game, or gotten both more than 2tds or more than 2cas.

The only time the 6 makes your fan factor go up when it wouldn't otherwise, is when you've lost the game, and not gotten either tds or cas.

So occasionally a loser will get lucky, and a winner will get screwed. This is the only effect of the rule of 1 and 6 on ff. Why is this something we want to encourage?

I know this doesn't apply to teams with ff over 10, because it's possible that their negative modifiers would cause these statistics to be altered a bit. However, again you're only punishing winning.

There is already precious little reward built into the system for winning the game, why make it even less? (speaking of which...) I say get rid of the rule of 1 and 6 for ff.

In the "speaking of which..." department, I'd like to suggest that the +1 mod to winnings be increased to +2, AND more importantly that it be applied AFTER all other modifiers. This is especially important given the new winnings table with all it's negative modifiers based on gate and TR. That way as long as you win you are guaranteed at least a little cash. How can that be a bad thing? Reward winning!

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 12:33 am

The +1 winnings is fine otherwise your just increase the gap between teams that win loads and teams that are struggling from injuries.

The ff rule is kinda a pain but it evens out, I don't mind if it gets changed or not.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 12:36 am

Grumbledook wrote:The +1 winnings is fine otherwise your just increase the gap between teams that win loads and teams that are struggling from injuries..

That's an awful nice way to say "teams that suck"

Grumbledook wrote:The ff rule is kinda a pain but it evens out, I don't mind if it gets changed or not.

Yes, it does, assuming you lose as many as you win. For people that win more than they lose it hurts, for teams that lose more than they win it helps in the long run.

nouge · Post by **nouge** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 12:37 am

I agree with you on the FF roll - to me there doesn't seem to be any reason to introduce such a random element here. It's been a pretty common sight in our league: 'Yeah, I won, 3 TDs, 4 Cas - arrrrg, a 1!' It just seems sort of stupid. Actually, it wouldn't matter so much if the FF roll was on a bell curve (like the Star Player rolls), but a straight 1 in 6 of FF going down no matter what is silly.

I don't agree on the winnings though. You don't want the teams that are doing well anyway pulling too far ahead of every body else.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 12:50 am

nouge wrote:I agree with you on the FF roll - to me there doesn't seem to be any reason to introduce such a random element here. It's been a pretty common sight in our league: 'Yeah, I won, 3 TDs, 4 Cas - arrrrg, a 1!' It just seems sort of stupid. Actually, it wouldn't matter so much if the FF roll was on a bell curve (like the Star Player rolls), but a straight 1 in 6 of FF going down no matter what is silly.

Wow somebody agrees with me on something around here.

nouge wrote:I don't agree on the winnings though. You don't want the teams that are doing well anyway pulling too far ahead of every body else.

Well, maybe the +2 was a bit much...however I really do think the +1 should be at the end. You should always at least get 10k for winning a game no matter what.

I guess it's still the part of me that's fighting that hard cap the lrb puts on maxxing team size. I don't like the tr 800 teams on olbbl any more than anybody else (I was a commish on there for a long time before giving up because nobody listened to me there, either); At the same time, I think a team that wins consistently depite all odds (and there are a lot of things going against bigger teams now) deserves a chance to be up there with the great teams of legend in the BB rulebook (the Darkside Cowboys and Reikland Reavers and so on). I think if you win you should be rewarded.

10k isn't going to unbalance a league either way...the winnings is 1d6 anyway, having +1 to that every game you win is not that scary.

OK I'll stop rambling now...for now

Amon242 · Post by **Amon242** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 1:09 am

Maybe the 1-6 rule is there to represent the fickleness of your average Blood Bowl fan? Sure you creamed the other team 5-0 and had 4 kills, but for some reason, after watching the game they just didn't like something you did. Maybe it was that blitzer giving the middle finger to the crowd and the reporters as he walked off the field that lost you the FF, or maybe it was the skin tight santa outfits the other cheerleaders wore that gave him the extra FF despite losing by such a wide margin.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 1:35 am

wesleytj wrote:At the same time, I think a team that wins consistently depite all odds (and there are a lot of things going against bigger teams now) deserves a chance to be up there with the great teams of legend in the BB rulebook (the Darkside Cowboys and Reikland Reavers and so on). I think if you win you should be rewarded

The folks of TBB translated the Reikland Reavers from the 2nd edition books and came up with a TR of 310 for the team. This type of TR is pretty much very close to the max out point of the current rules for TR. IE, you can get to that legendary status .. its just not as high as you think it is.

Almost all the teams of legend in the 2nd edition books translate to this range.

The ones we finished so far:
Reikland Reavers: TR 310
Champions of Death: TR 212
Chaos All-Stars: TR 340
Dwarf Giants: TR 290
Underworld Creepers: TR 190

We didn't finish the Gouged Eye, Darkside Cowboys, and Elfheim Eagles but I'm betting they end up in that 275 to 325 range also. (Some day I'll finish the last three).

TR 300 to Jervis always has been Legend status for a team ... the current rules finally back up his view of BB.

Galak

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 2:05 am

Amon242 wrote:Maybe the 1-6 rule is there to represent the fickleness of your average Blood Bowl fan? Sure you creamed the other team 5-0 and had 4 kills, but for some reason, after watching the game they just didn't like something you did. Maybe it was that blitzer giving the middle finger to the crowd and the reporters as he walked off the field that lost you the FF.....

Funnily enough I've just lost a FF after a 5-0 and a fistful of cas...that's just the way the cookie crumbles..
If winning prevented you from losing a FF as it used to, you're gonna end up broadening the gap again...

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 7:54 am

I always thought the 1 and 6 on FF was do to with the way Jim and Bob reported the match (and who'd trust them to call it right

)

BoB · Post by **BoB** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:00 am

Cmon, we all favour the underdog, if your favourite team keeps on kicking ass, it gets dull, it is why people supported the fremantle dockers, although i appreciate that few ppl on here will know what i am talking about

High & Mighty · Post by **High & Mighty** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 2:13 pm

wesleytj wrote:
Grumbledook wrote:The ff rule is kinda a pain but it evens out, I don't mind if it gets changed or not.
Yes, it does, assuming you lose as many as you win. For people that win more than they lose it hurts, for teams that lose more than they win it helps in the long run.

But that's exactly the point. The system helps those that seem to need it and keeps in check those that don't, and in the process hopefully makes each individual game a little more competitive and fun.

Also, if your interest is more in the uber-long-term development of teams, the impact of 1 and 6 is nothing compared to the -1 for each 10 FF (and in fact, 1 and 6 has less impact the more ff you get so once you start approaching those lofty levels, it's not even a factor).

MistWraith · Post by **MistWraith** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 2:32 pm

I do not like the rule.

Not, because it hurts winning teams, or that it slows down uber-status for some teams.

I dislike it, purly on design basis. I feel it is poor design. You can explain it internaly, only by convorted logic. The same logic, that can be convorted to explain why it should not happen.

For example: Star Player Fido flips off the crowd.
Responce:
(a) Crowd hates him, so Fan Factor goes down.
(b) He is a bad boy, and the crowd loves to provoke him. Fan Factor goes up, because the crowd got what they wanted. For Real World examples see "Sports Entertainment" shows on TV.

As you can see we have the same event, but two diffrent outcomes. Using convorted fluff to justifiy a (imuho) silly rule, is wrong.

When you do everything right, you should be rewarded. Not lose FF based on one bad dice roll.

In conclusion, it is my unhumble opinion that the rule of 1 and 6 for fan factor gain/loss is to random, and arbitrary a rule.

Khankill · Post by **Khankill** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:32 pm

Maybe the 1-6 rule is there to represent the fickleness of your average Blood Bowl fan? Sure you creamed the other team 5-0 and had 4 kills, but for some reason, after watching the game they just didn't like something you did. Maybe it was that blitzer giving the middle finger to the crowd and the reporters as he walked off the field that lost you the FF, or maybe it was the skin tight santa outfits the other cheerleaders wore that gave him the extra FF despite losing by such a wide margin.

Its people like this that I love to play against. Instead of argueing how a rule isn't fair he has come up with some nice flavor comments that explain how it could happen.

Amon242, I hope you are planning on attending the (as of yet unnamed) Gen-Con tourney. You and I need to play some Blood-bowl and have some laughs.

Post by **Thadrin** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:54 pm

I would prefer to see the 1 and 6 thing on FF removed. In my league we have removed it. Why? we didn't like it. SImple. I think its a horrible rule.

So I was thinking - lets remove the 1 and 6 rule, and throw some new modifiers onto the table:
-1 for having lost to a team with a TRR lower than your own
-1 for having conceded 2 or more TDs
+1 for beating a team with a higher TRR.

Encourages teams to go hunting "bigger game", and if you're a top dog then the fans don't want you to ever lose because they KNOW you're the best. Hurts the big teams but not the new ones.

Something like that anyway. Make it tougher for teams to get a positive bonus.

Amon242 · Post by **Amon242** » Thu Jan 16, 2003 7:18 pm

Khankill wrote:
Amon242, I hope you are planning on attending the (as of yet unnamed) Gen-Con tourney. You and I need to play some Blood-bowl and have some laughs.

I've never played a tourney, much less anyone outside of my little circle of oppents in our house league, so I'm pretty sure I would get crushed. Either way, Milwaukee isn't that far away so I will keep my eyes open for information on the tourney.

I think your view on 1-6 depends on the goal of your team and league. If its parity, then your for 1-6. If its Team Building, then your against 1-6. I know thats a general brushing, but personally I think it would be a pain in the ass to role gate with a 30 FF, much less a 300.