Why is impossible to remote ....

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 8:24 pm

Some racial caracteristics ?

In the previous rules for Big guys it was possible so why not now ??

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 10:45 pm

It is now impossible to remove the racial characteristics for two reasons:

1) Big Guys who lose their racial characterstic often become too powerful... A Rat Ogre without WA as an example is an INCREDIBLE blitzer ... loses the Rchar was a huge thing when it happened, but since these players earned skills SO sllllooowwwwlllyyy it was never a big deal.
2) Enter reason #2, Big Guy know earn skill rolls at the same speed as every other player in Blood Bowl ... if you still allowed them to lose the Rchars these players would become complete monsters on the pitch in no time.

Given the choice between:
A) Remove Rchars on doubles, double SPPs progression
and
B) No removing Rchars, normal SPPs progression

I would gladly take B ... it just makes your average Big Guy a better player for you team faster even if it means he always has his racial problems.

Galak

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 2:12 am

I like the idea that all coach can "make" the star players (Morg is one the most famous player in BB world and he is not bonehead). Please don't tell that he is unusual player,

PS : The illustration can be made for every other big guy star players ( most of them, have lost their racial caracteristic, and add St+1, ...

neoliminal · Post by **neoliminal** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 3:33 am

We wanted to allow for you to make the stars, but it wasn't possible given the constraints we had to work with. We, too, are sad that you can't make your own Stars exactly like the ones from the cards. Some other examples are Varag... he can't get Jump Up.

All I can say is, we tried to balance simplicity and history. In this case, history lost.

DaFrenchCoach · Post by **DaFrenchCoach** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 9:30 am

Sorry Trambi, but I'm agree with galak and neo: it's more balanced... And the idea of making the exact reproduction of you r preferate star is hard to make: how would you have those bonuses: +1M +1AG; +1AV; +1S ??? It's statisticly near impossible.

In fact, I think problem is a lot of people, and it's normal, are really attached to these 3rd edition stars. maybe it should be an idea to make possible for a +200 TR Team to acquire one, which can play the role of leader... This idea could be mixed with "big guys and allies special position" (you're just allowed to have 2 extra position in your roster, for example: you can have an ally and a big guy, a star and a big guy, if you're over 200 TR... never more than 1 BG, 1 ally, or 1 star. Stunty players roster could have 3 extra positions in their roster).

[ This Message was edited by: DaFrenchCoach on 2002-03-02 09:34 ]

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 11:25 am

Perhaps it hard to make this star but it's possible

(if you are very lucky). In addition, if they have to gain the double of experience and make an double to experience roll, the number of big guys without rc is pretty small. My ogre team has played more than 10 matchs, and only one player is without bonehead, when i have two players with niggling injuries.

For Varag GhoulChewer, there is a pb too.

The fact is that I play without star players, that why I think it's the key to be able to make the star players.

DaFrenchCoach · Post by **DaFrenchCoach** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 1:27 pm

On 2002-03-02 11:25, Trambi wrote:
In addition, if they have to gain the double of experience and make an double to experience roll, the number of big guys without rc is pretty small. My ogre team has played more than 10 matchs, and only one player is without bonehead, when i have two players with niggling injuries.

The fact is that I play without star players, that why I think it's the key to be able to make the star players.

But what's the matter exactly Trambi ? If only one ogre of yours has been its bonehead trait removed, why do you want that in 2K1, which has another balance of game than the 4th Gold Rules, it becomes possible without this double SPP progression? I found 2K1 Rules very easy to use, even if the "star system", which existed since so many times (2nd edition, with this lot of starplayers cards) is a little bit lost...

About SPP progression, it was really hard to play and to manage in a league, especially when you've got a complete big guys team. Just a point of view, but I never found Big Guys teams very balanced. When you read about BB history, you will see these ones never won nothing (oldheim ogres, ...). It MUST be hard to play with it, and hardier to win with. It's all the same for Snotlings teams (sorry norse

), which could have won a lot of matches with Gold Edition Rules. So I found important that traits (bonehead, hungry animal,...) can't be removed.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 2:39 pm

Trambi ...

Are you really saying that you would rather have the small chance to lose Bonehead for your Ogre, then the chance to really make him a star through normal progression???

I just don't get that ... really. When my Ogre gets to 31 SPPs ... I would rather that he have 3 skills with Bonehead .... than 1 skill and no Bonehead. Being able to actually roll up Morg is not something I need or desire at all. Impossible star players should not be the reason to go back to Big Guys that progress like snails.

I just think your Ogre is a better "star" with 3 skills and 1 skill and no Bonehead. If you want good Ogre players the new system is a lot better.

Now if you still HAVE to be able to develop star players then here is best system that I know of that you could use with BB2k1 .. note this would be a house rule that your league commish would have to approve.

You are allowed to purchase a rookie Ogre for your team for the price of Morg (ie 190k) ... he will have normal rookie stats to start with. Everytime he earns a skill, instead of rolling for the skill, the rookie may gain on the attributes of Morg, your choice (which were +1 MA, +1 ST, +1 AG, +1 AV, Block, and no Bonehead). In addition, this player never needs to make an aging roll. Once he earns the last skill (in Morg's case at 126 SPPs), he continues to be able to earns SPPs but cannot gain anymore skills. In addition, once he obtains his last skill the player's ego reaches the point where he will only take the pitch if you pay half his purchase cost at the beginning of a match (ie 95k).

If you use this system than it would be important to not allow freebooted star into your league. In theory the system should work pretty well. You'll be carrying a lot of extra TR for a very long time (meaning you are giving up handicap rolls) and there is a good chance that if he ever reaches his last skill that Serious Injuries will have earned him some Niggles or stat reducers along the way.

This system could be used for any star player in the game. My last recommendation would be that if you used this system that each team only be allowed to have one such star player and two teams cannot develop the same star player.

BTW, the majority of the concept came from a post from Prowler on 6/30/2001 on this board. I've kept the material since then and plan on posting it as a suggested alternative to star players in BB2k1 on my site at some point.

There you go Trambi ... with this system you could pick one Morg player and be able to develop him with some TR penalties or another player could just by a rookie Ogre and develop him as normal.

Just my thoughts.

Galak

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 5:58 pm

I don't want a Morg player, it's an illustration to show that it must possible to remote rc. The star player in card are one of the worst thing for BB, but the fact that Morg exist and played for Chaos All Stars. The existence of a such player show that is logical that a ogre can lose his rc, the same with Bolgrot for troll and stupidity. I don't want to have star players in my team. The star players show simply that rc can be remoted. If not, star players are unbalanced.

DaFrenchCoach · Post by **DaFrenchCoach** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:27 pm

You can't take these "historical" examples: stars exist before traits, in BB history.

In 3rd edition, Morg existed before Big Guys, and Big Guys teams became allowed. So there is no automatical link between traits and stars. Just think Morg is Morg, and any other player should become like its. Is there 2 Zinedine Zidane in Soccer ?

About Morg and Ripper, they must be exceptions. In France, we may add:"that confirms rule".

But don't forget the nicest thing with Blood Bowl is you can play like you want. If you want to remove traits, don't hesitate. But to my mind, in 2K1 Rules, it only can be a "house rule"

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sat Mar 02, 2002 10:05 pm

Yah, you could never convince a change to the BB2k1 rules on this one ... way too many people applauded the change to normal progression and no ability for traits to be removed. It was widely talked about as a great change.

DFC said ... if you miss it greatly ... see if your league will house rule it so that Big Guys can still loses traits on doubles ... however I just don't see why you'd want this if the cost was that the player progressed with double star player points.

Which do you REALLY believe is the better Ogre:
5/5/2/9 Bonehead, Mighty Blow, Block, Tackle, Stand Firm, Throw TeamMate, Thick Skull
OR
5/5/2/9 Mighty Blow, Block, Throw TeamMate, Thick Skull.

I'd rather have the 1st one, but its my personal preference. Even if you get the ability to remove Rchars .... what are you going to do about the fact that Morg had AV 10 ... you cannot get that in BB2k1 ... Varag has Jump Up ... how'd he get it. The point here is Trambi that sometimes genius exists. Stravarius made violin that took CENTURIES to determine his secrets ... I just accept the fact that Morg, Ripper, and Varag are those unusual players who have talents that may only be seen once in a century or more. Those exceptional stars can be freebooted in BB2k1 if you really need those geniuses of the pitch ... otherwise you have to use the normal everyday players with star potential but not superstar potential.

Galak

[ This Message was edited by: GalakStarscraper on 2002-03-03 14:32 ]

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Sun Mar 03, 2002 11:57 am

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Sun Mar 03, 2002 12:00 pm

On 2002-03-02 22:05, GalakStarscraper wrote:
(...)

Which do you REALLY believe is the better Ogre:
5/5/2/9 Bonehead, Mighty Blow, Block, Tackle, Stand Firm, Throw TeamMate, Thick Skull
OR
5/5/2/9 Mighty Blow, Block, Throw TeamMate, Thick Skull.

I'd rather have the 2nd, but its my personal preference. Even if you get the ability to remove Rchars .... what are you going to do about the fact that Morg had AV 10 ... you cannot get that in BB2k1 ...
(...)
Galak

Even with three skills, they will be an hazard of that Ogre#1 not blitzing in a key moment. So i take the #2.
I think that the rules for Big Guys are simply better in 3ed + CJ than in 2k1 review.
Big guys were hard to develop but they can be real monsters (with a lot of luck) or useless dums.

[ This Message was edited by: Trambi on 2002-03-03 12:04 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Trambi on 2002-03-03 12:05 ]

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sun Mar 03, 2002 2:37 pm

Since you like the 2nd Ogre and I the 1st .... that tells me we will just agree to disagree on Ogres.

You are one of the few people that believe that Big Guys were better off with the 3rd edition rules.... that cool. If you can convince your league commish of the same thing, then you can house rule 3rd edition Big Guy rules for your league if they are/or start using the BB2k1 ruleset.

However, the opinion that 3rd edition Big Guys were better is minority vote, so don't expect to see the official rules ever go back to 3rd. In the immortal words of Stan Lee (Marvel Comics founder) "Nuff Said!"

Galak

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Mon Mar 04, 2002 3:01 pm

-i am the league commish of this league and his team is on his 3 rd tournament under 3rd Ed, i have to say that after many timùes i ve seen him play, i agree with Trambi: a player without bonehead is most important than a player with 3 skills, cos you are never sure if he can do his action, like a blitz...a block(and then loose his tacklezone)...a pass?
-okay,Morg has exist before Big guys rules but why did people created them? 2nd background and the pleasure to create his own Ogre.
for Big guys we use an extra-rules we've done:
on a skill roll of 12, the Ogre can take ANY (exept physical) skills=>that quite fun, i would like too see an ogre with Hail Mary Pass...
- i think that normal progression for big guy is too great for them, most particularly in a Big guy Team!!!
too powerfull with the time, dont like it=>i dont like ultimate team but may be you dont accept Ogre team (i hope you dont with this rule).

Oldheim Ogre has done some quite good results DaFrench, read your 2nd Ed book again. they didnt won the BB but all the great team didnt as well...so read what they ve exactly done before saying they are loosers...